FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   PreferencesPreferences   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Forum index » Electronix » Repair
Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why?
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 1 [13 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
NSM
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 719

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

"John Robertson" <spam@flippers.com> wrote in message
news:2005061910262643658%spam@flipperscom...

Quote:
Drop by www.baterryuniversity.com for information on what type of
batteries ...


Try http://www.batteryuniversity.com/ instead.

N
Back to top
John Robertson
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

On 2005-06-14 18:30:03 -0700, Desert Tripper <destrip@NO-SPAM.net> said:

Quote:
Hello,

Like a lot of people, we have run across a few of those "Hot Wheels"
powered cars that use a pair of sealed lead-acid (Type H) batteries,
in good condition but the batteries are shot. The batteries are puny
and expensive (around $20 even at Wal-Mart). So, I got to thinking: a
motorcycle battery HAS to have a better Amp-Hr rating than that thing.
I picked up a brand new motorcycle battery for 20-something at the
local Sam's Club, charged it and plunked it in. WOW! the thing ran
better than ever and went quite a while between charges. The kids
loved it!!!

Trouble was, after 10 or so charge/discharge cycles, the run time per
charge started diminishing and after a while the battery wouldn't even
take a charge. It didn't seem to be running hot or anything.
Electrolyte level was fine and everything, too. Charge current didn't
exceed 2 amps or so. The same thing happened twice, both with a Barbie
two-seater "Jeep" and a "quad."

I am confused. I don't think surge current is an issue, as their
primary function is to send a massive bolus of current to a starter
motor. Perhaps I exceeded some sort of "continuous current draw"
rating? I have an electricity/electronics background, but batteries
are not my forte'. I would really like to know what caused the
motorcyle batteries to die so I can avoid this problem later.

I really don't want to buy those puny overpriced batteries if I can
avoid it. I am wondering, should I go one battery size up (perhaps a
lawn tractor battery?) The battery compartment would probably
accommodate one of those, but it is too small for an auto battery.
(Wishfully thinking I could put a deep-discharge RV battery into it!
Wouldn't that be something! (grin))

Thanks much for any information!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug

the Desert Tripper - Exploring Southern Cal deserts and the Net since '94
www.geocities.com/destrip *Replace
'see-below.no-SPAM.net' with 'dslextreme.com' to email me.*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..


Drop
Quote:

by www.baterryuniversity.com for information on what type of batteries

to use in various applications and an explanation of why they fail when
miss-used.

You need gel-cell deep discharge batteries that are spiral wound...

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup) John's
Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they
just flip out."
Back to top
Robert Peffers
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

"James Jones" <junebug@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mb6se.16425$Hj.785@lakeread02...
Quote:
Desert Tripper wrote:
Hello,

Like a lot of people, we have run across a few of those "Hot Wheels"
powered cars that use a pair of sealed lead-acid (Type H) batteries,
in good condition but the batteries are shot. The batteries are puny
and expensive (around $20 even at Wal-Mart). So, I got to thinking: a
motorcycle battery HAS to have a better Amp-Hr rating than that thing.

Like everyone else has noted, you need a deep discharge battery. And I
would go with a gel-cell, not something that will spill acid when the
vehicle is flipped.

Here is a PDF file that explains what kind of battery you need:

http://ungn.net/gardentractorbatteries1.pdf

Here are some details that may clear things up for you. There are two basic
types of lead acid battery. Those made to provide large but short current
bursts, (car, (auto), batteries and those made for a long sustained power
drain, (Deep cycle), batteries. They differ in that the plates of the car
type are thinner but of a larger area. While the basic chemistry is the same
they all need charged in a different manner. Wet cells are made to be
topped-up and can stand a bit of overcharging as overcharging causes gassing
and a subsequent loss of water. Sealed cells obviously cannot be allowed to
gas and overcharging them leads to a short life. Those cars that have their
alternator regulator set to charge wet cell batteries are all wrong for
charging sealed batteries. Within the class of sealed batteries are the gel
cells and these are sealed lead acid batteries but the electrolyte is
treated with silica to form a gel. Now while gel cells are sealed lead acid
batteries NOT ALL SEALED LEAD ACID BATTERIES ARE GEL CELLS.

The point is that cheap car chargers, or alternators not set for the job,
will kill sealed and gel batteries quick time. Gel cells really need three
stage, controlled, chargers. See this
http://www.donrowe.com/battery_charger/samlex_document.html

--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
Back to top
James Jones
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:17 am    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

Desert Tripper wrote:
Quote:
Hello,

Like a lot of people, we have run across a few of those "Hot Wheels"
powered cars that use a pair of sealed lead-acid (Type H) batteries,
in good condition but the batteries are shot. The batteries are puny
and expensive (around $20 even at Wal-Mart). So, I got to thinking: a
motorcycle battery HAS to have a better Amp-Hr rating than that thing.

Like everyone else has noted, you need a deep discharge battery. And I
would go with a gel-cell, not something that will spill acid when the
vehicle is flipped.

Here is a PDF file that explains what kind of battery you need:

http://ungn.net/gardentractorbatteries1.pdf
Back to top
none
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

On Wed, 15 Jun 2005 18:20:42 -0500, "dig154" <dig154@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Quote:
No. In fact, motorcycle batteries leak worse than just about any other type
of lead acid battery.

They do make sealed motorcycle batteries, though you never see them on

anything but off road bikes and four wheelers.
They cost much more so the makers opt for the cheaper vented
batteries.
Quote:
"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns967679EF3C736jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84...
quietguy <quietguy@REMOVE-TO-REPLYconfidential-counselling.com> wrote in
news:42AF8A2C.4B684CD3@REMOVE-TO-REPLYconfidential-counselling.com:

Aren't MOTORCYCLE batteries designed to -not- leak acid when overturned,as
it's reasonable that a MC could overturn?
Back to top
dig154
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

No. In fact, motorcycle batteries leak worse than just about any other type
of lead acid battery.

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov.> wrote in message
news:Xns967679EF3C736jyanikkuanet@129.250.170.84...
Quote:
quietguy <quietguy@REMOVE-TO-REPLYconfidential-counselling.com> wrote in
news:42AF8A2C.4B684CD3@REMOVE-TO-REPLYconfidential-counselling.com:

Aren't MOTORCYCLE batteries designed to -not- leak acid when overturned,as
it's reasonable that a MC could overturn?
Back to top
Jim Yanik
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 635

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

quietguy <quietguy@REMOVE-TO-REPLYconfidential-counselling.com> wrote in
news:42AF8A2C.4B684CD3@REMOVE-TO-REPLYconfidential-counselling.com:

Quote:
Like Ken I had a mental picture of a kid stuck in one of these toys that
had overturned - with battery acid dripping into/onto his or her eyes and
face and.....

David - shuddering at these thoughts and so glad that m/bike battery has
given up the ghost

Ken Weitzel wrote:


The key to the technical side of this problem is that
the motorcycle battery wasn't designed to be deep discharged.

The old grandfather part of me would have a great concern
with this idea... Respectfully, hate to even think of your
youngsters playing with a toy with a lead acid battery in it. Sad

Aren't MOTORCYCLE batteries designed to -not- leak acid when overturned,as
it's reasonable that a MC could overturn?


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net
Back to top
none
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 174

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:48 am    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 18:30:03 -0700, Desert Tripper
<destrip@NO-SPAM.net> wrote:

Quote:
Hello,

Like a lot of people, we have run across a few of those "Hot Wheels"
powered cars that use a pair of sealed lead-acid (Type H) batteries,
in good condition but the batteries are shot. The batteries are puny
and expensive (around $20 even at Wal-Mart). So, I got to thinking: a
motorcycle battery HAS to have a better Amp-Hr rating than that thing.
I picked up a brand new motorcycle battery for 20-something at the
local Sam's Club, charged it and plunked it in. WOW! the thing ran
better than ever and went quite a while between charges. The kids
loved it!!!

Trouble was, after 10 or so charge/discharge cycles, the run time per
charge started diminishing and after a while the battery wouldn't even
take a charge. It didn't seem to be running hot or anything.
Electrolyte level was fine and everything, too. Charge current didn't
exceed 2 amps or so. The same thing happened twice, both with a Barbie
two-seater "Jeep" and a "quad."

I am confused. I don't think surge current is an issue, as their
primary function is to send a massive bolus of current to a starter
motor. Perhaps I exceeded some sort of "continuous current draw"
rating? I have an electricity/electronics background, but batteries
are not my forte'. I would really like to know what caused the
motorcyle batteries to die so I can avoid this problem later.

I really don't want to buy those puny overpriced batteries if I can
avoid it. I am wondering, should I go one battery size up (perhaps a
lawn tractor battery?) The battery compartment would probably
accommodate one of those, but it is too small for an auto battery.
(Wishfully thinking I could put a deep-discharge RV battery into it!
Wouldn't that be something! (grin))

Thanks much for any information!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug the Desert Tripper - Exploring Southern Cal deserts and the Net since '94
www.geocities.com/destrip
*Replace 'see-below.no-SPAM.net' with 'dslextreme.com' to email me.*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
.

A motorcycle battery can't tolerate the deep discharge. Motorcycles
have to have a fully charged battery to start and run, their charging
system keeps the battery at full charge during operation. i.e.
motorcycle batteries are therefor designed to give best performance at
top cycle with little consideration towards deep discharge durability.
You can get aftermarket SLA batteries that match the oem's at any
industrial battery supply shop for a bit more than the 20 bucks you
paid for that shallow cycle motorcycle battery.
Back to top
Keith in NJ
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 13 Jun 2005
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

sorry. meant to send this to the list...


i was lookign up hopping these cars on the net a while ago..
from what i understand people were using trolling motor batteries.

i'm not this guy but i rememeber seeing this cd a while ago..
check out some of the videos on this page too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5980796988

i swapped out my son's f150 tires for rubber tired with bearings i got from
a swap meet. they are 10 times better then the big plastic wheels.

let me know if you get it figured out or want to go half on this CD. ;)

k.


"Desert Tripper" <destrip@NO-SPAM.net> wrote in message
news:6puua1993cll1c8ng0ks0rfqrnsg2mp7bq@4ax.com...
Quote:
Hello,

Like a lot of people, we have run across a few of those "Hot Wheels"
powered cars that use a pair of sealed lead-acid (Type H) batteries,
in good condition but the batteries are shot. The batteries are puny
and expensive (around $20 even at Wal-Mart). So, I got to thinking: a
motorcycle battery HAS to have a better Amp-Hr rating than that thing.
I picked up a brand new motorcycle battery for 20-something at the
local Sam's Club, charged it and plunked it in. WOW! the thing ran
better than ever and went quite a while between charges. The kids
loved it!!!

Trouble was, after 10 or so charge/discharge cycles, the run time per
charge started diminishing and after a while the battery wouldn't even
take a charge. It didn't seem to be running hot or anything.
Electrolyte level was fine and everything, too. Charge current didn't
exceed 2 amps or so. The same thing happened twice, both with a Barbie
two-seater "Jeep" and a "quad."

I am confused. I don't think surge current is an issue, as their
primary function is to send a massive bolus of current to a starter
motor. Perhaps I exceeded some sort of "continuous current draw"
rating? I have an electricity/electronics background, but batteries
are not my forte'. I would really like to know what caused the
motorcyle batteries to die so I can avoid this problem later.

I really don't want to buy those puny overpriced batteries if I can
avoid it. I am wondering, should I go one battery size up (perhaps a
lawn tractor battery?) The battery compartment would probably
accommodate one of those, but it is too small for an auto battery.
(Wishfully thinking I could put a deep-discharge RV battery into it!
Wouldn't that be something! (grin))

Thanks much for any information!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
Doug the Desert Tripper - Exploring Southern Cal deserts and the Net since
'94
www.geocities.com/destrip
*Replace 'see-below.no-SPAM.net' with 'dslextreme.com' to email me.*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
.
Back to top
James Sweet
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 1386

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:05 am    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

"Desert Tripper" <destrip@NO-SPAM.net> wrote in message
news:6puua1993cll1c8ng0ks0rfqrnsg2mp7bq@4ax.com...
Quote:
Hello,

Like a lot of people, we have run across a few of those "Hot Wheels"
powered cars that use a pair of sealed lead-acid (Type H) batteries,
in good condition but the batteries are shot. The batteries are puny
and expensive (around $20 even at Wal-Mart). So, I got to thinking: a
motorcycle battery HAS to have a better Amp-Hr rating than that thing.
I picked up a brand new motorcycle battery for 20-something at the
local Sam's Club, charged it and plunked it in. WOW! the thing ran
better than ever and went quite a while between charges. The kids
loved it!!!

Trouble was, after 10 or so charge/discharge cycles, the run time per
charge started diminishing and after a while the battery wouldn't even
take a charge. It didn't seem to be running hot or anything.
Electrolyte level was fine and everything, too. Charge current didn't
exceed 2 amps or so. The same thing happened twice, both with a Barbie
two-seater "Jeep" and a "quad."


You have to use a deep cycle battery for an application like this, a
motorcycle battery is only meant to supply power for a few seconds to start
the engine, at which point the alternator takes over. If you discharge it
significantly it'll sulfate very quickly. Get a deep cycle battery, a sealed
gel cell would be the best bet.
Back to top
quietguy
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

Like Ken I had a mental picture of a kid stuck in one of these toys that
had overturned - with battery acid dripping into/onto his or her eyes and
face and.....

David - shuddering at these thoughts and so glad that m/bike battery has
given up the ghost

Ken Weitzel wrote:

Quote:

The key to the technical side of this problem is that
the motorcycle battery wasn't designed to be deep discharged.

The old grandfather part of me would have a great concern
with this idea... Respectfully, hate to even think of your
youngsters playing with a toy with a lead acid battery in it. :(

Worry about the liquid acid, worry about the almost certainly
exposed contacts. :(

Respectfully suggest that you re-consider using them - or
failing that to at least not let them at it without constant
supervision.

Take care.

Ken
Back to top
Ken Weitzel
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 314

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

Desert Tripper wrote:
Quote:
Hello,

Like a lot of people, we have run across a few of those "Hot Wheels"
powered cars that use a pair of sealed lead-acid (Type H) batteries,
in good condition but the batteries are shot. The batteries are puny
and expensive (around $20 even at Wal-Mart). So, I got to thinking: a
motorcycle battery HAS to have a better Amp-Hr rating than that thing.
I picked up a brand new motorcycle battery for 20-something at the
local Sam's Club, charged it and plunked it in. WOW! the thing ran
better than ever and went quite a while between charges. The kids
loved it!!!

Trouble was, after 10 or so charge/discharge cycles, the run time per
charge started diminishing and after a while the battery wouldn't even
take a charge. It didn't seem to be running hot or anything.
Electrolyte level was fine and everything, too. Charge current didn't
exceed 2 amps or so. The same thing happened twice, both with a Barbie
two-seater "Jeep" and a "quad."

I am confused. I don't think surge current is an issue, as their
primary function is to send a massive bolus of current to a starter
motor. Perhaps I exceeded some sort of "continuous current draw"
rating? I have an electricity/electronics background, but batteries
are not my forte'. I would really like to know what caused the
motorcyle batteries to die so I can avoid this problem later.

I really don't want to buy those puny overpriced batteries if I can
avoid it. I am wondering, should I go one battery size up (perhaps a
lawn tractor battery?) The battery compartment would probably
accommodate one of those, but it is too small for an auto battery.
(Wishfully thinking I could put a deep-discharge RV battery into it!
Wouldn't that be something! (grin))

Thanks much for any information!

Hi Doug...

The key to the technical side of this problem is that
the motorcycle battery wasn't designed to be deep discharged.

The old grandfather part of me would have a great concern
with this idea... Respectfully, hate to even think of your
youngsters playing with a toy with a lead acid battery in it. :(

Worry about the liquid acid, worry about the almost certainly
exposed contacts. :(

Respectfully suggest that you re-consider using them - or
failing that to at least not let them at it without constant
supervision.

Take care.

Ken
Back to top
Desert Tripper
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 14 Jun 2005
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:30 pm    Post subject: Ride-on toys kill motorcycle battery - why? Reply with quote

Hello,

Like a lot of people, we have run across a few of those "Hot Wheels"
powered cars that use a pair of sealed lead-acid (Type H) batteries,
in good condition but the batteries are shot. The batteries are puny
and expensive (around $20 even at Wal-Mart). So, I got to thinking: a
motorcycle battery HAS to have a better Amp-Hr rating than that thing.
I picked up a brand new motorcycle battery for 20-something at the
local Sam's Club, charged it and plunked it in. WOW! the thing ran
better than ever and went quite a while between charges. The kids
loved it!!!

Trouble was, after 10 or so charge/discharge cycles, the run time per
charge started diminishing and after a while the battery wouldn't even
take a charge. It didn't seem to be running hot or anything.
Electrolyte level was fine and everything, too. Charge current didn't
exceed 2 amps or so. The same thing happened twice, both with a Barbie
two-seater "Jeep" and a "quad."

I am confused. I don't think surge current is an issue, as their
primary function is to send a massive bolus of current to a starter
motor. Perhaps I exceeded some sort of "continuous current draw"
rating? I have an electricity/electronics background, but batteries
are not my forte'. I would really like to know what caused the
motorcyle batteries to die so I can avoid this problem later.

I really don't want to buy those puny overpriced batteries if I can
avoid it. I am wondering, should I go one battery size up (perhaps a
lawn tractor battery?) The battery compartment would probably
accommodate one of those, but it is too small for an auto battery.
(Wishfully thinking I could put a deep-discharge RV battery into it!
Wouldn't that be something! (grin))

Thanks much for any information!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Doug the Desert Tripper - Exploring Southern Cal deserts and the Net since '94
www.geocities.com/destrip
*Replace 'see-below.no-SPAM.net' with 'dslextreme.com' to email me.*
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
..
Back to top
Google

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 1 [13 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
The time now is Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:47 pm | All times are GMT
Forum index » Electronix » Repair
Jump to:  

Similar Topics
Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
No new posts 12 volts Lead acid battery charger IC Ayesha design 0 Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:20 pm
No new posts Yes, I can ride a bike...... Genome design 1 Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:52 pm
No new posts battery bob@coolgroups.com Basics 2 Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:58 pm
No new posts battery charging Ken O Basics 4 Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:04 am
No new posts Battery weight? I.F. Misc 3 Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:39 pm

Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
Other DeniX Solutions sites: Unix/Linux blog |  Unix/Linux documentation |  Unix/Linux forums |  Medicine forum |  Science forum  |  Send and track newsletters


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group