FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   PreferencesPreferences   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Forum index » Electronix » design
"Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere?
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 3 [37 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page:  1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
Martin Blume
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:56 am    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

"Joerg" schrieb
Quote:

After finding some possibly useful routines to calculate
filters (wave digital in this case) I got stuck because these
are for Matlab. I only have Scilab and next to no experience
with it. The files are mostly *.m, some *.p and a few graphics
GUI files *.fig. Scilab doesn't understand any of these.

Octave (www.octave.org) might be closer to MATLAB than Scilab.


HTH
Martin
Back to top
john
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:16 am    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Hi Joerg,

I dont think its a matter of conversion, a .mat file is a bianary used
by matlab, you can use it to port data around to other applications,
but not much else... The .m files are ASCII. .fig are either gui tools
or graphs. I think you will have to get matlab to use its filter
design tool (a gui that gives you the filter coefficients for a dsp,)
or the dsp toolbox, etc. Matlab is an excelent tool if you plan to
start doing dsp.

good luck,

John

Joerg wrote:
<snip>
Quote:
The files are mostly *.m,
some *.p and a few graphics GUI files *.fig. Scilab doesn't understand
any of these.

Is there a text somewhere, along the lines of "Matlab to Scilab file
conversion for dummies"?

The brief instructions for routines like "loadmatfile" on Scilab's site
are simply not verbose enough for an analog guys like me :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Back to top
Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Hello Martin,

Quote:

After finding some possibly useful routines to calculate
filters (wave digital in this case) I got stuck because these
are for Matlab. I only have Scilab and next to no experience
with it. The files are mostly *.m, some *.p and a few graphics
GUI files *.fig. Scilab doesn't understand any of these.

Octave (www.octave.org) might be closer to MATLAB than Scilab.


Thanks, I'll give it a try.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Back to top
Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Hello John,

Quote:

I dont think its a matter of conversion, a .mat file is a bianary used
by matlab, you can use it to port data around to other applications,
but not much else... The .m files are ASCII. .fig are either gui tools
or graphs. I think you will have to get matlab to use its filter
design tool (a gui that gives you the filter coefficients for a dsp,)
or the dsp toolbox, etc. Matlab is an excelent tool if you plan to
start doing dsp.


Yes, but also very expensive. There is the usual discrepancy, really
high prices for individuals and academia pays less than 1/3 of that. At
least it used to be that way. It's hard to justify to shell out almost
$2k just to try something out since I normally don't do much work that
would need it.

BTW, this is for a uC so it'll be one of those shoe horn and sledge
hammer jobs.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Back to top
Joel Kolstad
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:SRTrg.167929$F_3.146633@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Quote:
Yes, but also very expensive. There is the usual discrepancy, really high
prices for individuals and academia pays less than 1/3 of that.

Academic pricing is based on the presumptions that (1) getting the tools
into the hands of future engineers will lead to future sales and (2)
academic institutions often don't have that much money around anyway, so
some sale is better than no sale. The student edition of Matlab is quite
cheap -- $100! (http://www.journeyed.com/itemDetail.asp?T1=42381696%20R).

It is unfortunate that a lot of tools are clearly not priced for the "casual
commercial user"... we just purchaesd a copy of Matlab to the tune of $11k
(that included a bunch of toolboxes and Simulink), and while we can justify
that based on the contract we'll be using it for, it definitely stings. On
the other hand, it's not *too* bad when you compare its utility (if you can
use it on a regular basis) to that of, e.g., a $100k network analyzer...

Whatever happened to those companies where the idea was that you'd just
logon to their Windows terminal servers (or the Unix equivalent) and
effectively just "rent" the tools for the time that you actually needed
them? I suspect you'd be willing to pay, say, $10 to use Matlab in such a
fashion, no?

---Joel
Back to top
Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:53 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Hello Joel,

Quote:

Yes, but also very expensive. There is the usual discrepancy, really high
prices for individuals and academia pays less than 1/3 of that.

Academic pricing is based on the presumptions that (1) getting the tools
into the hands of future engineers will lead to future sales and (2)
academic institutions often don't have that much money around anyway, so
some sale is better than no sale. The student edition of Matlab is quite
cheap -- $100! (http://www.journeyed.com/itemDetail.asp?T1=42381696%20R).


Future sales is what companies believe will happen. But then the
student-turned-engineer files a cap-ex and his new boss throws it right
back at him with a big red X across it.

Maybe I should sign up for studies of philosophy or whatever and then
order? But that wouldn't be righteous.

Some EDA pricing clearly has spiraled out of sanity. OTOH that inspires
new companies to jump in. When OrCad went to >$1.7K just for the
schematic package I simply pulled the plug on them and switched to
Cadsoft. Haven't regretted it. Even if Cadence now came back with a
really sweet teaser offer it'll be too late.


Quote:
It is unfortunate that a lot of tools are clearly not priced for the "casual
commercial user"... we just purchaesd a copy of Matlab to the tune of $11k
(that included a bunch of toolboxes and Simulink), and while we can justify
that based on the contract we'll be using it for, it definitely stings. On
the other hand, it's not *too* bad when you compare its utility (if you can
use it on a regular basis) to that of, e.g., a $100k network analyzer...


Yeah but, you can often find a used analyzer that's good enough for a
small fraction of that. I have done that a lot, bought stuff when
companies closed shop, needed to upgrade and so on. In fact, more than
half my lab grew together that way. Works fine. There is some gear that
I bought used and it looked like it had been used once, if that.
Actually, there is some equipment that I could not have bought any other
way because HP/Agilent quit making them.

With SW you can't usually do that because when companies upgrade they
are typically not allowed sell their old licenses.


Quote:
Whatever happened to those companies where the idea was that you'd just
logon to their Windows terminal servers (or the Unix equivalent) and
effectively just "rent" the tools for the time that you actually needed
them? I suspect you'd be willing to pay, say, $10 to use Matlab in such a
fashion, no?


Sure. Just for kicking the tires there won't be any confidential data in
design files so it could all be run via the web. The perfect biz model
would be similar to prepaid cell service. They should give you free
access to play with it using their demo stuff. Then when you feel you
can wing it you pay for the minutes of runtime.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Back to top
Joel Kolstad
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Hi Joerg,

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:2XUrg.167946$F_3.67435@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Quote:
Future sales is what companies believe will happen. But then the
student-turned-engineer files a cap-ex and his new boss throws it right
back at him with a big red X across it.

Depends a lot on the company; I believe that The Mathworks probably has a
large number of copies being used at all the Big Electronic Design Houses
(Intel, Tektronix, Skyworks, Motorola anyone doing DSP, etc.)

Quote:
Maybe I should sign up for studies of philosophy or whatever and then
order? But that wouldn't be righteous.

I've thought of doing that just to get IEEE conference price reductions. Smile
(Are you an IEEE member, Joerg? It seems to me that the prices of most
everything they do these days is high enough that it's seldom justifiable
unless you're working for those big guys... or in academia...)

Quote:
Some EDA pricing clearly has spiraled out of sanity. OTOH that inspires
new companies to jump in. When OrCad went to >$1.7K just for the schematic
package I simply pulled the plug on them and switched to Cadsoft. Haven't
regretted it. Even if Cadence now came back with a really sweet teaser
offer it'll be too late.

There's a lot of overpriced EDA software out there, yet plenty of companies
(cough... CADENCE... cough... MENTOR GRAPHICS... cough!) seem able to to get
others to buy it on a continual basis.

Quote:
Yeah but, you can often find a used analyzer that's good enough for a
small fraction of that.

Certainly true, although I think it does largely depend on what you're
doing. Something like, say, a $50-100k spectrum analyzer today will be able
to perform IQ demodulation and many automated measurements on various
complicated standards such as WiMax or CDMA-2000. Although you can often
find something like an HP 8590-series spectrum analyzer where the raw RF
performance is just about as good (other than IQ demodulation, since that
requires two mixers), realistically few people are going to be able to sit
down and use such an instrument to make measurements on any modern digital
communications system.

Slight change of topic here:

The success rate of product design when the engineering is contracted out
almost seems independent of how much the engineers are being paid... in
fact, it might even be higher for lower dollar contracts, because only guys
who really *know* they can do the job or are really desperate for any job
and will keep at it until it works will bid! On the other hand, with the
high dollar contracts, there's at least usually money left over to call in
someone like you when things don't work... :-)

Given your skills and reputation, I would imagine you can pretty much
"cherry pick" which contracts you're willing to accept these days?

---Joel




---Joel
Back to top
Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:07 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Hello Joel,

Quote:

Future sales is what companies believe will happen. But then the
student-turned-engineer files a cap-ex and his new boss throws it right
back at him with a big red X across it.

Depends a lot on the company; I believe that The Mathworks probably has a
large number of copies being used at all the Big Electronic Design Houses
(Intel, Tektronix, Skyworks, Motorola anyone doing DSP, etc.)

Maybe I should sign up for studies of philosophy or whatever and then
order? But that wouldn't be righteous.

I've thought of doing that just to get IEEE conference price reductions. Smile
(Are you an IEEE member, Joerg? It seems to me that the prices of most
everything they do these days is high enough that it's seldom justifiable
unless you're working for those big guys... or in academia...)


Yes, I am a member (UFFC, EMBS).

Quote:

Some EDA pricing clearly has spiraled out of sanity. OTOH that inspires
new companies to jump in. When OrCad went to >$1.7K just for the schematic
package I simply pulled the plug on them and switched to Cadsoft. Haven't
regretted it. Even if Cadence now came back with a really sweet teaser
offer it'll be too late.

There's a lot of overpriced EDA software out there, yet plenty of companies
(cough... CADENCE... cough... MENTOR GRAPHICS... cough!) seem able to to get
others to buy it on a continual basis.


It's not just EDA. Got a dentist bill in the mail today and almost blew
a gasket. A whopping $400 (four hundred!) for well under an hour's work.
Should have become a dentist. They can bill whatever they want, they
aren't regulated, clients are almost hostage once in the chair, it's a
gold mine.


Quote:
Yeah but, you can often find a used analyzer that's good enough for a
small fraction of that.

Certainly true, although I think it does largely depend on what you're
doing. Something like, say, a $50-100k spectrum analyzer today will be able
to perform IQ demodulation and many automated measurements on various
complicated standards such as WiMax or CDMA-2000. Although you can often
find something like an HP 8590-series spectrum analyzer where the raw RF
performance is just about as good (other than IQ demodulation, since that
requires two mixers), realistically few people are going to be able to sit
down and use such an instrument to make measurements on any modern digital
communications system.


True. But it's almost a prerequisite that there is some large government
contract or grant behind it. Or lots of VC.


Quote:
Slight change of topic here:

The success rate of product design when the engineering is contracted out
almost seems independent of how much the engineers are being paid... in
fact, it might even be higher for lower dollar contracts, because only guys
who really *know* they can do the job or are really desperate for any job
and will keep at it until it works will bid! On the other hand, with the
high dollar contracts, there's at least usually money left over to call in
someone like you when things don't work... :-)


In my experience you get what you pay for. But you are right in that a
high rate does not guarantee quality of design. Had to redesign a lot of
stuff that was done by "big shots". It always worked on the bench but
not in production.


Quote:
Given your skills and reputation, I would imagine you can pretty much
"cherry pick" which contracts you're willing to accept these days?


It's nearly all word of mouth. This means that I am still in the med
electronics biz because that is where I started 20 years ago. Slowly I'd
like to migrate out of that though, can't get PL insurance from any US
carrier for this field anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Back to top
mrdarrett@gmail.com
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 305

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:44 am    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Joerg wrote:
Quote:
Hello Joel,


Future sales is what companies believe will happen. But then the
student-turned-engineer files a cap-ex and his new boss throws it right
back at him with a big red X across it.

Depends a lot on the company; I believe that The Mathworks probably has a
large number of copies being used at all the Big Electronic Design Houses
(Intel, Tektronix, Skyworks, Motorola anyone doing DSP, etc.)

Maybe I should sign up for studies of philosophy or whatever and then
order? But that wouldn't be righteous.

I've thought of doing that just to get IEEE conference price reductions. Smile
(Are you an IEEE member, Joerg? It seems to me that the prices of most
everything they do these days is high enough that it's seldom justifiable
unless you're working for those big guys... or in academia...)


Yes, I am a member (UFFC, EMBS).


Some EDA pricing clearly has spiraled out of sanity. OTOH that inspires
new companies to jump in. When OrCad went to >$1.7K just for the schematic
package I simply pulled the plug on them and switched to Cadsoft. Haven't
regretted it. Even if Cadence now came back with a really sweet teaser
offer it'll be too late.

There's a lot of overpriced EDA software out there, yet plenty of companies
(cough... CADENCE... cough... MENTOR GRAPHICS... cough!) seem able to to get
others to buy it on a continual basis.


It's not just EDA. Got a dentist bill in the mail today and almost blew
a gasket. A whopping $400 (four hundred!) for well under an hour's work.
Should have become a dentist. They can bill whatever they want, they
aren't regulated, clients are almost hostage once in the chair, it's a
gold mine.

Goodness, didn't you get an estimate, or a second opinion, before your
dentist began work?

About a year ago, we switched dentists (bad service); our new dentist
wanted to do about $500 worth of major crown work for my wife. Decided
to get a second opinion. Second opinion said the crows weren't
necessary; only a filling. We switched dentists again to that one
ASAP.

Michael
Back to top
mrdarrett@gmail.com
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 305

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Martin Blume wrote:
Quote:
"Joerg" schrieb

After finding some possibly useful routines to calculate
filters (wave digital in this case) I got stuck because these
are for Matlab. I only have Scilab and next to no experience
with it. The files are mostly *.m, some *.p and a few graphics
GUI files *.fig. Scilab doesn't understand any of these.

Octave (www.octave.org) might be closer to MATLAB than Scilab.

HTH
Martin


Wow, open source? That's really neat. I'll have to try it when I get
home...

Anyone know of an open-source clone of Mathematica? Or is that too
much to hope for... Wink ?

Michael
Back to top
Joel Kolstad
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 695

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

<mrdarrett@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1152428262.176330.13240@s13g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Anyone know of an open-source clone of Mathematica? Or is that too
much to hope for... Wink ?

This isn't a direct answer, but at least in Matlab a very large percentage
of the functions are themselves just script files that you can edit and try
to glean an algorithm from... for complex algorithms there's often a pointer
to a paper as a reference.

Unfortunately, I expect that Matlab/Mathematica/MathCAD/etc. are going to
start heading the direction of the "Numerical Recipies in C" book did some
years ago now -- cleaining that, while the algorithm there's aren't
proprietary (since, after all, they usually came from public references!),
the particular implementations are... which leaves you in somewhat murky
legal waters when realistically a given algorithm pretty much implies 95% of
the implementation. In particular, I noticed that MathCAD 6 back in the
late '90s still came with a manual that provided plenty of algorithm/paper
references... whereas by the time MathCAD 2002 was released, this
documentation had vanished as far as I could tell... that's just one step
away from deciding the algorithms themselves are the company's own IP.

That's a good reason to hope that OCtave keeps evolving!
Back to top
Martin Blume
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

<mrdarrett@gmail.com> schrieb
Quote:

Octave (www.octave.org) might be closer to MATLAB
than Scilab.


Wow, open source? That's really neat.
I'll have to try it when I get home...

Anyone know of an open-source clone of Mathematica?
Or is that too much to hope for... Wink ?

Don't know, but maybe Maxima

(http://maxima.sourceforge.net/index.shtml)
might fill the bill?

Regards
Martin
Back to top
mrdarrett@gmail.com
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 305

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Martin Blume wrote:
Quote:
mrdarrett@gmail.com> schrieb

Octave (www.octave.org) might be closer to MATLAB
than Scilab.


Wow, open source? That's really neat.
I'll have to try it when I get home...

Anyone know of an open-source clone of Mathematica?
Or is that too much to hope for... Wink ?

Don't know, but maybe Maxima
(http://maxima.sourceforge.net/index.shtml)
might fill the bill?

Regards
Martin


Ooh, I'll have to try that, thanks!

In school, we had Mathematica workstations in several of the
engineering computer labs. One of the more memorable tasks I had a
workstation do was to solve a system of nonlinear equations - about 100
of them (for sizing a distillation column).

Thanks,

Michael
Back to top
Tim Wescott
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 707

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Joerg wrote:

Quote:
Hello All,

After finding some possibly useful routines to calculate filters (wave
digital in this case) I got stuck because these are for Matlab. I only
have Scilab and next to no experience with it. The files are mostly *.m,
some *.p and a few graphics GUI files *.fig. Scilab doesn't understand
any of these.

Is there a text somewhere, along the lines of "Matlab to Scilab file
conversion for dummies"?

The brief instructions for routines like "loadmatfile" on Scilab's site
are simply not verbose enough for an analog guys like me :-(

Octave is quite compatible with MatLab.


I like the SciLab syntax and environment better, but it's _not_ friendly
to beginners (but then neither are MatLab or Octave).

SciLab does have routines to translate a matlab script into a scilab
script. Typing 'help matlab' at the command line will get you quite a
few hits. The conversion covers the *.m files, but I'm not sure what
the *.p or *.fig files do, or if SciLab can handle them. There is a
SciLab newsgroup on which you can post your questions --
comp.soft-sys.scilab.org.

Absent considerations of being compatible with industry, I recommend
SciLab over MatLab - even if both were free. If you're going to do a
lot of work with customers who want m files then you're kind of stuck
with MatLab or Octave, but I haven't had that happen to me more than
once in the last three years.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Posting from Google? See http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/

"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" came out in April.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
Back to top
Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:43 pm    Post subject: Re: "Matlab to Scilab for Dummies" anywhere? Reply with quote

Hello Michael,

Quote:

Goodness, didn't you get an estimate, or a second opinion, before your
dentist began work?


It's rework on something done in Europe and there aren't too many that
would even touch it.

Estimates with dentists are often elusive. When you are sitting there
and the pain is shooting up to the cranium there ain't much motivation
to shop ;-)


Quote:
About a year ago, we switched dentists (bad service); our new dentist
wanted to do about $500 worth of major crown work for my wife. Decided
to get a second opinion. Second opinion said the crows weren't
necessary; only a filling. We switched dentists again to that one
ASAP.


Well, we did shop around and for most work like root canals the others
were even higher. Plus our dentist is really good. It's just that
sometimes the bills make you cringe.

If we would just live closer to the Mexican border this burden would be
much less heavy.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Back to top
Google

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 1 of 3 [37 Posts] Goto page:  1, 2, 3 Next
View previous topic :: View next topic
The time now is Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:20 am | All times are GMT
Forum index » Electronix » design
Jump to:  

Similar Topics
Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
No new posts Re: LED's for dummies Jeff Stout Basics 0 Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:31 am
No new posts Electrolysis for dummies Michael Basics 24 Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:38 pm
No new posts ADS MatLab cosimulation help!!!! Phil Newman design 0 Wed May 17, 2006 2:05 pm
No new posts Matlab Rayleigh Fading Channel Simulation? Davy Basics 4 Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:23 am
No new posts matlab code for decimated low pass fir filter used in dig... anshu design 2 Thu Feb 16, 2006 10:50 am

Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
Other DeniX Solutions sites: Unix/Linux blog |  Unix/Linux documentation |  Unix/Linux forums |  Medicine forum |  Science forum  |  Send and track newsletters


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group