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lead free solder again
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Barry Lennox
electronics forum addict


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:13 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

On 10 Jul 2006 15:02:43 -0700, mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

Quote:
I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

So... is Airbus required to go for lead-free solder too, for RoHS and
all that...?

Hoo-boy... if so, wouldn't want to fly on any Airbus aircraft built
after 2006, then...

Michael

The bigger problem, is that while industry sectors can get exemptions,
it's becoming very difficult to get leaded components any more. Many
vendors have simply dropped them. And we are now starting to see that
many vendors will never be making new parts in a leaded option. So
unless the aerospace manufacturers have hangers full of leaded parts,
the exemption is no use. And even if they do have good stocks, they
will be locked into 2005/06 technology.

Maybe the problem will be solved when the first Airbus full of
Euro-crats crashes as a result of tin whiskers or tin pest?

Barry Lennox
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Frank Bemelman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:18 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

<mrdarrett@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1152568963.513696.147460@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

Didn't know that lead was added not until the late 40's.

But if you spray finished boards with some kind of coating,
would that not prevent the growth of whiskers?

Anyway, I don't hear much complaining from large companies
so it might not be such a big deal after all. Time will
tell, of course.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Frank Bemelman wrote:

Quote:
mrdarrett@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1152568963.513696.147460@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

Didn't know that lead was added not until the late 40's.

But if you spray finished boards with some kind of coating,
would that not prevent the growth of whiskers?

You want to physically restrain the tin ? It's some kind of crystal growth so I
doubt it'll be bothered by a coating. In nay case what you're suggesting is
simply another band-aid on a truly bad idea.

There's plenty more problems anyway such as fatigue of the solder joint.


Quote:
Anyway, I don't hear much complaining from large companies

Haven't heard about Swatch ?

I'm sure there'll be screams of anguish eventually when the full implications
come to light.


Quote:
so it might not be such a big deal after all. Time will tell, of course.

Yes it will.

Graham
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Frank Bemelman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:27 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> schreef in
bericht news:44B35AC2.90DEA6DC@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com...
Quote:


Frank Bemelman wrote:

mrdarrett@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1152568963.513696.147460@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

Didn't know that lead was added not until the late 40's.

But if you spray finished boards with some kind of coating,
would that not prevent the growth of whiskers?

You want to physically restrain the tin ? It's some kind of crystal growth
so I
doubt it'll be bothered by a coating. In nay case what you're suggesting
is
simply another band-aid on a truly bad idea.

Given the diameter of the whiskers, I doubt if they develop enough
force to punch through. Strange phenomena anyway, because the whiskers
don't start everywhere, but just here and there.


Quote:
There's plenty more problems anyway such as fatigue of the solder joint.


Anyway, I don't hear much complaining from large companies

Haven't heard about Swatch ?

That's the one and only I heard off, and was mentioned here at
SED about a month ago? One case is not much. I don't hear Philips,
Sony, JVC, Samsung, HP, Canon, etc.

Quote:
I'm sure there'll be screams of anguish eventually when the full
implications
come to light.


so it might not be such a big deal after all. Time will tell, of course.

Yes it will.

The list of exemptions can be widened, if need be. I can imagine
they add wrist watches to the list of exemptions, not much solder
in a wrist watch anyway, so who would care about that kind of
stuff being lead-free or not.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
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Klaus Bahner
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Quote:

The bigger problem, is that while industry sectors can get exemptions,
it's becoming very difficult to get leaded components any more. Many
vendors have simply dropped them. And we are now starting to see that
many vendors will never be making new parts in a leaded option. So
unless the aerospace manufacturers have hangers full of leaded parts,
the exemption is no use. And even if they do have good stocks, they
will be locked into 2005/06 technology.

Tin whiskers have nothing to do with lead-free or non lead-free parts.
It only depends on what kind of solder you are using.

Klaus
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote:

Quote:
On 10 Jul 2006 15:02:43 -0700, mrdarrett@gmail.com Gave us:

I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

So... is Airbus required to go for lead-free solder too, for RoHS and
all that...?

Hoo-boy... if so, wouldn't want to fly on any Airbus aircraft built
after 2006, then...

Michael

I am almost absolutely certain that avionics is in the exempt list.

I believe it's not actually *exempted* but doesn't fall into the RoHS remit !

Typical damn legalese nonsense. I suspect automotive gets off like that too (
covered by other legislation ). It's a totally ridiculous mire of paperwork
invented by the moronic fatheads in Brussels.

Graham
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vic
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 21

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

So... is Airbus required to go for lead-free solder too, for RoHS and
all that...?

Hoo-boy... if so, wouldn't want to fly on any Airbus aircraft built
after 2006, then...

Michael


So, does lead-free solder have this problem too ? How bad is it ? Do you
have studies, pictures, etc ?

vic
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Jon
electronics forum addict


Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 96

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:
Quote:
I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

So... is Airbus required to go for lead-free solder too, for RoHS and
all that...?

Hoo-boy... if so, wouldn't want to fly on any Airbus aircraft built
after 2006, then...

Michael

Michael,
(Slightly OT) It seems silly to spend so many resourses on ROHS with
respect to solder, when recycling would be a more sensible (and much
safer, as far as avionics is concerned) alternative. Think of all the
lead-acid automobile batteries that are in use. This lead is kept out
of the environment via recycling.
Regards,
Jon
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

vic wrote:

Quote:
mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:
I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

So... is Airbus required to go for lead-free solder too, for RoHS and
all that...?

Hoo-boy... if so, wouldn't want to fly on any Airbus aircraft built
after 2006, then...

Michael

So, does lead-free solder have this problem too ?

Too ? It is lead-free issues we're talking about !

Quote:
How bad is it ? Do you have studies, pictures, etc ?

Just Google ! There are any number of problems with lead-free soldering notably,
in the consumer domain, reduced product lifetime resulting in more waste
generation.

Graham
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I.F.
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 407

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Frank Bemelman" <f.bemelmanq@xs4all.invalid.nl> wrote in message
news:44b36ebe$0$8667$e4fe514c@dreader27.news.xs4all.nl...
Quote:
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> schreef in
bericht news:44B35AC2.90DEA6DC@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com...


Frank Bemelman wrote:

mrdarrett@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1152568963.513696.147460@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

Didn't know that lead was added not until the late 40's.

But if you spray finished boards with some kind of coating,
would that not prevent the growth of whiskers?

You want to physically restrain the tin ? It's some kind of crystal
growth
so I
doubt it'll be bothered by a coating. In nay case what you're suggesting
is
simply another band-aid on a truly bad idea.

Given the diameter of the whiskers, I doubt if they develop enough
force to punch through. Strange phenomena anyway, because the whiskers
don't start everywhere, but just here and there.


There's plenty more problems anyway such as fatigue of the solder joint.


Anyway, I don't hear much complaining from large companies

Haven't heard about Swatch ?

That's the one and only I heard off, and was mentioned here at
SED about a month ago? One case is not much. I don't hear Philips,
Sony, JVC, Samsung, HP, Canon, etc.

I'm sure there'll be screams of anguish eventually when the full
implications
come to light.


so it might not be such a big deal after all. Time will tell, of
course.

Yes it will.

The list of exemptions can be widened, if need be. I can imagine
they add wrist watches to the list of exemptions, not much solder
in a wrist watch anyway, so who would care about that kind of
stuff being lead-free or not.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)


The big companies you mention are absolutely delighted that "through no
fault of their own" their products will have very short lifetimes, the
intermittent nature of lead free solder failure has created a consumer
mindset that once an item fails it will continue to give nothing but trouble
no matter how competently repaired, so most equipment is thrown out at the
first hint of intermittent operation!!!
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

ian field wrote:

Quote:
The big companies you mention are absolutely delighted that "through no
fault of their own" their products will have very short lifetimes, the
intermittent nature of lead free solder failure has created a consumer
mindset that once an item fails it will continue to give nothing but trouble
no matter how competently repaired, so most equipment is thrown out at the
first hint of intermittent operation!!!

Which is of course about as *ungreen* as it gets despite the apparent motive
behind RoHS !

Graham
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I.F.
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 407

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:44B3E0C9.B45422AB@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com...
Quote:


ian field wrote:

The big companies you mention are absolutely delighted that "through no
fault of their own" their products will have very short lifetimes, the
intermittent nature of lead free solder failure has created a consumer
mindset that once an item fails it will continue to give nothing but
trouble
no matter how competently repaired, so most equipment is thrown out at
the
first hint of intermittent operation!!!

Which is of course about as *ungreen* as it gets despite the apparent
motive
behind RoHS !

Graham

The motive remains a mystery, I can see no advantage to the general
population!
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Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello Klaus,

Quote:

Tin whiskers have nothing to do with lead-free or non lead-free parts.
It only depends on what kind of solder you are using.


I have just finished another design and several parts were only
available in non-lead. We used regular lead solder, no problem.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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nospam
electronics forum addict


Joined: 14 Feb 2005
Posts: 86

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:24 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Quote:
Hello Klaus,


Tin whiskers have nothing to do with lead-free or non lead-free parts.
It only depends on what kind of solder you are using.


I have just finished another design and several parts were only
available in non-lead. We used regular lead solder, no problem.

Yet....

The picture linked by the OP specifically shows whiskers growing on the tin
plated leads of a crystal in the area which had not been Sn/Pb solder
dipped.

--
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mrdarrett@gmail.com
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 23 Nov 2005
Posts: 305

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:04 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

nospam wrote:
Quote:
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Klaus,


Tin whiskers have nothing to do with lead-free or non lead-free parts.
It only depends on what kind of solder you are using.


I have just finished another design and several parts were only
available in non-lead. We used regular lead solder, no problem.

Yet....

The picture linked by the OP specifically shows whiskers growing on the tin
plated leads of a crystal in the area which had not been Sn/Pb solder
dipped.



Found another reference, maybe this will help:

http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/background/index.htm

"What are Tin Whiskers?
Tin whiskers are electrically conductive, crystalline structures of tin
that sometimes grow from surfaces where tin (especially electroplated
tin) is used as a final finish."

Michael
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