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lead free solder again
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Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello Roger,

Quote:

... All I hear from Joerg is complaining about something he has
zero hands-on experience with.

How do you know that?

FYI, I work in medical and there are areas where lead is not allowed.
My exposure to conductive bonding processes of such devices is about
twelve years by now. And we are talking mass production here. Ok, maybe
that's not enough by your standards.

It would be helpful to disclose some of that information..

Contact bonding has been used in a variety of places for years. Have a
look at:
http://ap.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Archives&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=82206&KEYWORD=lead-free
For an overview of the advantages/disadvantages.
The IEEE site, also has a paper on this technology.
I have used it as an assembly process on a couple systems. It's biggest
weakness came at higher power, where the extra resistance, both
electrical, and thermal, does become a problem. Personally, I think the
chemicals involved in the epoxies are much nastier to handle than lead
solders, but of course, once the resin sets, they result is very inert
indeed.


Bonding is one very viable alternative. Besides thermal and electrical
resistance an issue that frequently crops up especially in highly
regulated areas such as here in California is fumes. Once cured, most
adhesives are ok. But while the dispenser robot is going the stench can
be quite nasty and you'd have to scrub all the toxins out of the exhaust
air.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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Frank Bemelman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht
news:Svxug.131637$dW3.38916@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
Quote:
Hello Frank,


... All I hear from Joerg is complaining about something he has
zero hands-on experience with.

How do you know that?

FYI, I work in medical and there are areas where lead is not allowed. My
exposure to conductive bonding processes of such devices is about twelve
years by now. And we are talking mass production here. Ok, maybe that's
not enough by your standards.

Does that involve lead-free solder too? What is the trick to
prevent whiskers? Fill us in, with your 12 years experience
you must be able to give some advice, other than just complaining.


Yes, it does but not the stuff that is sold in the stores now. Can't
reveal details as that would seriously damage a few companies'
competitive edge and I would be in breach of contract. Also, these
approaches would be far too expensive and cumbersome in "normal"
electronics assembly anyway. IOW, it would not help the cause here.

Okay, so back then a solution was found, be it expensive and
cumbersome. If this secret only gives a few companies a competive
edge, all your telling us that this still have competitors that
are still able to sell their products. It still isn't clear to
me what your 12 years experience is worth. As far as I can see,
it only lulled you into believing there is no other solution,
because you didn't look for anything else, for 12 years. It
certainly doesn't make you sound like some general expert on lead
free soldering.

Quote:
What I am complaining about is this: A legislative body has made a
decision and as far as I can tell there is no clear alternative path
they could point industry to. That's wrong. Before you make a law you
need to show your constituents how they are supposed to comply with it.

Large companies didn't seem to have much difficulties with it. They
are all ready, all on schedule. How is that possible?

You sound like an old French wine maker, complaining about lead
bottle capsules being banned, back in 1994. 12 years ago. Yes,
they had to invest in new equipment to seal their bottles, and
yes, the legislative bodies didn't gave them a step-by-step
foolproof guide how to do it exactly.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
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Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello Frank,

Quote:

... All I hear from Joerg is complaining about something he has
zero hands-on experience with.

How do you know that?

FYI, I work in medical and there are areas where lead is not allowed. My
exposure to conductive bonding processes of such devices is about twelve
years by now. And we are talking mass production here. Ok, maybe that's
not enough by your standards.

Does that involve lead-free solder too? What is the trick to
prevent whiskers? Fill us in, with your 12 years experience
you must be able to give some advice, other than just complaining.

Yes, it does but not the stuff that is sold in the stores now. Can't
reveal details as that would seriously damage a few companies'
competitive edge and I would be in breach of contract. Also, these
approaches would be far too expensive and cumbersome in "normal"
electronics assembly anyway. IOW, it would not help the cause here.

Okay, so back then a solution was found, be it expensive and
cumbersome. If this secret only gives a few companies a competive
edge, all your telling us that this still have competitors that
are still able to sell their products. ...


You are drawing conclusions a bit too fast. There are competitors but
they offer totally different (to a large extent non-electronic)
technology. If they knew how we'd done it they would embark onto the
same bandwagon. Naturally, that is not desired.


Quote:
... It still isn't clear to
me what your 12 years experience is worth. As far as I can see,
it only lulled you into believing there is no other solution,
because you didn't look for anything else, for 12 years. ...


We did look for other solutions. We found them. But as I said they are
pretty must cost-prohibitive for consumer gear and we did not find
something less expensive.

Oh, and BTW we were told by a few top notch (European) robot makers that
"you cannot do this". We did it.


Quote:
... It
certainly doesn't make you sound like some general expert on lead
free soldering.


Are you? Let me turn this around and repeat the question I already asked
you: Where is the proof that lead-free solder works well under normal
wear and tear conditions and for the long term? With long term I do not
mean a few months or so.

Quote:

What I am complaining about is this: A legislative body has made a
decision and as far as I can tell there is no clear alternative path
they could point industry to. That's wrong. Before you make a law you
need to show your constituents how they are supposed to comply with it.

Large companies didn't seem to have much difficulties with it. They
are all ready, all on schedule. How is that possible?


Examples? Publications? Detailed report? Links?


Quote:
You sound like an old French wine maker, complaining about lead
bottle capsules being banned, back in 1994. 12 years ago. Yes,
they had to invest in new equipment to seal their bottles, and
yes, the legislative bodies didn't gave them a step-by-step
foolproof guide how to do it exactly.


Sometimes I wish I was a French wine maker. But not an old one ;-)

BTW, this is different because there were already established
alternative procedures with a long history. Wax seals and so on. And
yes, also the, gasp, beer bottle cap that certainly works and has a
history of probably a hundred years or so.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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Frank Bemelman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:03 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht
news:K8zug.6203$2v.1180@newssvr25.news.prodigy.net...
Quote:
Hello Frank,

We did look for other solutions. We found them. But as I said they are
pretty must cost-prohibitive for consumer gear and we did not find
something less expensive.

Oh, and BTW we were told by a few top notch (European) robot makers that
"you cannot do this". We did it.

That's the spirit.

Quote:

... It
certainly doesn't make you sound like some general expert on lead
free soldering.


Are you? Let me turn this around and repeat the question I already asked
you: Where is the proof that lead-free solder works well under normal
wear and tear conditions and for the long term? With long term I do not
mean a few months or so.

I'm no expert, in fact I know nothing about the subject. In 2002
we had already 5-10% lead free soldered consumer electronics. I would
expect to have heard more horror stories other than some complaining
here at SED. SED is not the place where it all happens.

Quote:
What I am complaining about is this: A legislative body has made a
decision and as far as I can tell there is no clear alternative path
they could point industry to. That's wrong. Before you make a law you
need to show your constituents how they are supposed to comply with it.

Large companies didn't seem to have much difficulties with it. They
are all ready, all on schedule. How is that possible?


Examples? Publications? Detailed report? Links?

Well, if you google for "ROHS motherboard" you will see that plenty
is available. I call that "on schedule". A PC's motherboard is an
extremely complicated piece of electronics that can't be thrown
together just like that. Apperently these guys were all able to
solve their soldering jobs. If it had been next to impossible, we
would have heard them yelling and bitching.

Quote:
You sound like an old French wine maker, complaining about lead
bottle capsules being banned, back in 1994. 12 years ago. Yes,
they had to invest in new equipment to seal their bottles, and
yes, the legislative bodies didn't gave them a step-by-step
foolproof guide how to do it exactly.


Sometimes I wish I was a French wine maker. But not an old one ;-)

BTW, this is different because there were already established
alternative procedures with a long history. Wax seals and so on. And
yes, also the, gasp, beer bottle cap that certainly works and has a
history of probably a hundred years or so.

My main point was that the law makers didn't provide the solution.
Wine makers had to solve it themselves. In your example, with the
medical gadget, the restriction of not using lead was probably dictated
by the customer, and your customer didn't give the solution either.

You have a tendency to complain about everything. About component
prices, about websites that don't work, about laptops running out
of juice, salesmen without a clue, non-dos software that doesn't work,
while, OTH, everybody else seems to manage those problems pretty well.

BTW, Philips Medical Systems goes ROHS too, even though medical gear
is exempted from ROHS.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
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Robert Latest
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 09:41:25 -0700,
Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote
in Msg. <b6ifb2po8o963sjjr6gj32ubukhnjooq8r@4ax.com>

Quote:
Same here. When I'm alone, "dinner" is a bottle of wine and a can of
cashews Wink

Same here. You can do a lot worse, health-wise.

BTW, I prefer my cashews un-roasted and un-salted. Even healthier!

robert
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I.F.
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 407

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Robert Latest" <boblatest@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4i10ctF1j3m2U4@individual.net...
Quote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2006 09:41:25 -0700,
Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote
in Msg. <b6ifb2po8o963sjjr6gj32ubukhnjooq8r@4ax.com

Same here. When I'm alone, "dinner" is a bottle of wine and a can of
cashews ;-)

Same here. You can do a lot worse, health-wise.

BTW, I prefer my cashews un-roasted and un-salted. Even healthier!

robert

Cashews make me fart just as bad as beans!!!
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I.F.
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 407

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Quote:

Well, if you google for "ROHS motherboard" you will see that plenty
is available. I call that "on schedule". A PC's motherboard is an
extremely complicated piece of electronics that can't be thrown
together just like that. Apperently these guys were all able to
solve their soldering jobs. If it had been next to impossible, we
would have heard them yelling and bitching.


Most of the big manufacturers of motherboards, TVs and other consumer
electronics are absolutely delighted that "through no fault of their own" -
their products will have drastically shorter life expectancy due to lead
free solder joints failing prematurely and so increasing throughput of
replacement products!

Also the intermittent nature of lead-free's failure mode (often involving
arcing in CRT displays and other HV gear!) has created a consumer mindset
that any equipment that fails will continue to be "nothing but trouble" no
matter how competently repaired. Some consumers are actually terrified when
their TV or monitor starts arcing and dropping burning embers out the grill
at the bottom and throw equipment in the trash for even the slightest
hiccup!
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Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello Frank,

Quote:

Are you? Let me turn this around and repeat the question I already asked
you: Where is the proof that lead-free solder works well under normal
wear and tear conditions and for the long term? With long term I do not
mean a few months or so.

I'm no expert, in fact I know nothing about the subject. In 2002
we had already 5-10% lead free soldered consumer electronics. I would
expect to have heard more horror stories other than some complaining
here at SED. SED is not the place where it all happens.


s.e.d.? T'is the place where a lot of experts on electronics hang out.
People who design stuff that is produced by the truck load.

Quote:

Examples? Publications? Detailed report? Links?

Well, if you google for "ROHS motherboard" you will see that plenty
is available. I call that "on schedule". A PC's motherboard is an
extremely complicated piece of electronics that can't be thrown
together just like that. Apperently these guys were all able to
solve their soldering jobs. If it had been next to impossible, we
would have heard them yelling and bitching.


Sure, Tyan and the others have no choice. They must produce RoHS
motherboards if they want to continue to ship to Europe. Other vendors
might decide to cut Europe off (I happen to know one).

If RoHS really backfires this may put an additional crimp into the
European economy. There might develop a market for non-RoHS gear,
commanding top Dollar. Since EU companies most likely won't be allowed
to produce that they might hear a loud flushing sound (money flowing out
instead of in).

We do not know whether they solved the lead-free solder issue. Absent
long term tests prior to enacting RoHS we won't know until a few years
down the road. Best case it's all hunky-dory, worst case you guys won't
have reliable computers anymore. Then you could send your files to the
US and the guys over here compute them for ya :-)

Quote:

You sound like an old French wine maker, complaining about lead
bottle capsules being banned, back in 1994. 12 years ago. Yes,
they had to invest in new equipment to seal their bottles, and
yes, the legislative bodies didn't gave them a step-by-step
foolproof guide how to do it exactly.

Sometimes I wish I was a French wine maker. But not an old one ;-)

BTW, this is different because there were already established
alternative procedures with a long history. Wax seals and so on. And
yes, also the, gasp, beer bottle cap that certainly works and has a
history of probably a hundred years or so.

My main point was that the law makers didn't provide the solution.
Wine makers had to solve it themselves. ...


No, as I had pointed out there already were solutions. Very different
scenario.


Quote:
... In your example, with the
medical gadget, the restriction of not using lead was probably dictated
by the customer, and your customer didn't give the solution either.


Customers never give solutions. That why there are engineers ;-)


Quote:
You have a tendency to complain about everything. About component
prices, about websites that don't work, about laptops running out
of juice, salesmen without a clue, non-dos software that doesn't work,
while, OTH, everybody else seems to manage those problems pretty well.


If you look closely I usually complain under two circumstances:

a. When there is clearly a tried and true alternative and some companies
have just lost the ability to do it, or don't care. Take the laptop: I
have one that did 6 hours on an old-technology NiCd (until a very rough
airplane ride cracked its enclosure). So, it clearly can be done. There
is proof. But the younger lads can't seem to figure it out anymore. My
advice: Hire some older lads to teach the young lads how it's done Smile)

b. When something is done willy-nilly, without prior due diligence. Such
as RoHS.

Am I the only one? Nope. Read this:

http://mae.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&ARTICLE_ID=259749&VERSION_NUM=2&p=32

Quote: "Today, no quantifiable means of predicting tin-whisker-related
problems exist."

If that is indeed true (and I haven't heard from anyone including you
that it ain't) you might still say you don't care about what the mil
guys think but we might be in for a very rude awakening. Well, not "we"
per se but the Europeans.


Quote:
BTW, Philips Medical Systems goes ROHS too, even though medical gear
is exempted from ROHS.


I wish them good luck. They may need it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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Michael A. Terrell
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 2291

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

ian field wrote:
Quote:

Cashews make me fart just as bad as beans!!!


Another fact we didn't need to know.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Michael A. Terrell
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 2291

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:45 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Joerg wrote:
Quote:

Hello Frank,


Are you? Let me turn this around and repeat the question I already asked
you: Where is the proof that lead-free solder works well under normal
wear and tear conditions and for the long term? With long term I do not
mean a few months or so.

I'm no expert, in fact I know nothing about the subject. In 2002
we had already 5-10% lead free soldered consumer electronics. I would
expect to have heard more horror stories other than some complaining
here at SED. SED is not the place where it all happens.


s.e.d.? T'is the place where a lot of experts on electronics hang out.
People who design stuff that is produced by the truck load.


Examples? Publications? Detailed report? Links?

Well, if you google for "ROHS motherboard" you will see that plenty
is available. I call that "on schedule". A PC's motherboard is an
extremely complicated piece of electronics that can't be thrown
together just like that. Apperently these guys were all able to
solve their soldering jobs. If it had been next to impossible, we
would have heard them yelling and bitching.


Sure, Tyan and the others have no choice. They must produce RoHS
motherboards if they want to continue to ship to Europe. Other vendors
might decide to cut Europe off (I happen to know one).

If RoHS really backfires this may put an additional crimp into the
European economy. There might develop a market for non-RoHS gear,
commanding top Dollar. Since EU companies most likely won't be allowed
to produce that they might hear a loud flushing sound (money flowing out
instead of in).

We do not know whether they solved the lead-free solder issue. Absent
long term tests prior to enacting RoHS we won't know until a few years
down the road. Best case it's all hunky-dory, worst case you guys won't
have reliable computers anymore. Then you could send your files to the
US and the guys over here compute them for ya :-)


You sound like an old French wine maker, complaining about lead
bottle capsules being banned, back in 1994. 12 years ago. Yes,
they had to invest in new equipment to seal their bottles, and
yes, the legislative bodies didn't gave them a step-by-step
foolproof guide how to do it exactly.

Sometimes I wish I was a French wine maker. But not an old one ;-)

BTW, this is different because there were already established
alternative procedures with a long history. Wax seals and so on. And
yes, also the, gasp, beer bottle cap that certainly works and has a
history of probably a hundred years or so.

My main point was that the law makers didn't provide the solution.
Wine makers had to solve it themselves. ...

No, as I had pointed out there already were solutions. Very different
scenario.

... In your example, with the
medical gadget, the restriction of not using lead was probably dictated
by the customer, and your customer didn't give the solution either.


Customers never give solutions. That why there are engineers ;-)

You have a tendency to complain about everything. About component
prices, about websites that don't work, about laptops running out
of juice, salesmen without a clue, non-dos software that doesn't work,
while, OTH, everybody else seems to manage those problems pretty well.


If you look closely I usually complain under two circumstances:

a. When there is clearly a tried and true alternative and some companies
have just lost the ability to do it, or don't care. Take the laptop: I
have one that did 6 hours on an old-technology NiCd (until a very rough
airplane ride cracked its enclosure). So, it clearly can be done. There
is proof. But the younger lads can't seem to figure it out anymore. My
advice: Hire some older lads to teach the young lads how it's done Smile)

b. When something is done willy-nilly, without prior due diligence. Such
as RoHS.

Am I the only one? Nope. Read this:

http://mae.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&ARTICLE_ID=259749&VERSION_NUM=2&p=32

Quote: "Today, no quantifiable means of predicting tin-whisker-related
problems exist."

If that is indeed true (and I haven't heard from anyone including you
that it ain't) you might still say you don't care about what the mil
guys think but we might be in for a very rude awakening. Well, not "we"
per se but the Europeans.

BTW, Philips Medical Systems goes ROHS too, even though medical gear
is exempted from ROHS.


I wish them good luck. They may need it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com


Is till say that we should not allow the importation of anything made
under ROHS guidelines. While we're at it, the law should require
service data and repair parts be available, BEFORE an item can be
imported. Sure, not every item is worth troubleshooting, but if someone
has a couple hundred or thousand returned items let them take a chance
if they want to try.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Frank Bemelman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:01 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht
news:CVPug.122228$H71.84387@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
Quote:
Hello Frank,

I'm no expert, in fact I know nothing about the subject. In 2002
we had already 5-10% lead free soldered consumer electronics. I would
expect to have heard more horror stories other than some complaining
here at SED. SED is not the place where it all happens.


s.e.d.? T'is the place where a lot of experts on electronics hang out.
People who design stuff that is produced by the truck load.

Yes, 24 out of +100000 designers ;)

Quote:
If RoHS really backfires this may put an additional crimp into the
European economy. There might develop a market for non-RoHS gear,
commanding top Dollar. Since EU companies most likely won't be allowed
to produce that they might hear a loud flushing sound (money flowing out
instead of in).

Top dollar niche market. Not a big loss.

Quote:

http://mae.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&ARTICLE_ID=259749&VERSION_NUM=2&p=32

Quote: "Today, no quantifiable means of predicting tin-whisker-related
problems exist."

Isn't that "ein holle Frase" ? What I indeed find most interesting is
that nobody gives any figures for the likelyhood that tin whiskers
are to be expected. Do they grow on 10% of the number of solder joints,
or 1%, or 0,1% or... or 0,00000000000001% ? But time will tell,
and in 10 years we know more.

Quote:
BTW, Philips Medical Systems goes ROHS too, even though medical gear
is exempted from ROHS.


I wish them good luck. They may need it.

I doubt they are playing Russian roulette this time.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
Back to top
Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello Frank,

Quote:

http://mae.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&ARTICLE_ID=259749&VERSION_NUM=2&p=32

Quote: "Today, no quantifiable means of predicting tin-whisker-related
problems exist."

Isn't that "ein holle Frase" ? ...


That would be "hohle Phrase" in German (a statement without content
behind it). Not so. They asked themselves the almost same question that
I had asked you: Is there a quantifiable means of predicting? Ok, you
admitted you aren't an expert on mainstream lead-free solder and neither
am I. Fact is, during this whole thread as well as on the web the is an
eerie absence of such data. Everybody just seems to hope that it won't
be that bad. Now that is a wonderful base for legislative action as we
have just seen it with RoHS.

It's not that hasty legislation only happens in Europe although it does
seem to fester there. In California some politicians went ahead and
mandated an oxygenator in our gasoline to reduce smog. Noble cause, just
as reducing lead is. Our gasoline became less efficient, making my car
burn about 10% more per mile than with Nevada gas. But the nightmare
came only years later. It was found that the chosen oxygenator MTBE had
leached into the ground water and was now contaminating one well after
the other.


Quote:
... What I indeed find most interesting is
that nobody gives any figures for the likelyhood that tin whiskers
are to be expected. Do they grow on 10% of the number of solder joints,
or 1%, or 0,1% or... or 0,00000000000001% ? ...


You are preaching to the choir here. That's exactly the point: Maybe
there aren't any figures.


Quote:
... But time will tell,
and in 10 years we know more.


But then it may be too late for some industries, mainly in Europe.

Quote:

BTW, Philips Medical Systems goes ROHS too, even though medical gear
is exempted from ROHS.

I wish them good luck. They may need it.

I doubt they are playing Russian roulette this time.


Let's hope so.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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Rich, but drunk
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 36

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:39 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 05:08:23 +0000, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Quote:
dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

So here's my best shot: Suppose you, Rich, fulfill all your emotional
needs, but eliminate all vitamin C from your diet. Subsist on, say,
Crisco. Then, three months from now, let's see how many teeth you have
left.

What makes you think he has any teeth right now?

I've seen the pictures!

(Rich posted his grinning mug a ways back, and grinning for good
reason, as he was PhotoShopped in between a pair of sightly babes.)

How do you know the teeth weren't photoshopped as well?

Boy, it must suck to be you!

For you, an evening's entertainment is to come up with cheap shots at
Rich Grise?

Actually, Gigi, Sharon, and Chandra are quite supple. Wink
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/Me+Gals1.jpg
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/Me+Gals2.jpg

Wanna see a picture of the original negative? >:->

Good Luck!
Rich
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Spehro Pefhany
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 2326

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 02:39:22 GMT, the renowned "Rich, but drunk"
<a@example.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 05:08:23 +0000, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

So here's my best shot: Suppose you, Rich, fulfill all your emotional
needs, but eliminate all vitamin C from your diet. Subsist on, say,
Crisco. Then, three months from now, let's see how many teeth you have
left.

What makes you think he has any teeth right now?

I've seen the pictures!

(Rich posted his grinning mug a ways back, and grinning for good
reason, as he was PhotoShopped in between a pair of sightly babes.)

How do you know the teeth weren't photoshopped as well?

Boy, it must suck to be you!

For you, an evening's entertainment is to come up with cheap shots at
Rich Grise?

Actually, Gigi, Sharon, and Chandra are quite supple. Wink
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/Me+Gals1.jpg
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/Me+Gals2.jpg

Wanna see a picture of the original negative? >:-

Good Luck!
Rich

Hmm... ca. 1972-73 ?


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
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dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Joerg wrote:
Quote:
Hello Frank,


http://mae.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ARTCL&ARTICLE_ID=259749&VERSION_NUM=2&p=32

Quote: "Today, no quantifiable means of predicting tin-whisker-related
problems exist."

Isn't that "ein holle Frase" ? ...


That would be "hohle Phrase" in German (a statement without content
behind it). Not so. They asked themselves the almost same question that
I had asked you: Is there a quantifiable means of predicting? Ok, you
admitted you aren't an expert on mainstream lead-free solder and neither
am I. Fact is, during this whole thread as well as on the web the is an
eerie absence of such data. Everybody just seems to hope that it won't
be that bad. Now that is a wonderful base for legislative action as we
have just seen it with RoHS.

It's not that hasty legislation only happens in Europe although it does
seem to fester there. In California some politicians went ahead and
mandated an oxygenator in our gasoline to reduce smog. Noble cause, just
as reducing lead is. Our gasoline became less efficient, making my car
burn about 10% more per mile than with Nevada gas. But the nightmare
came only years later. It was found that the chosen oxygenator MTBE had
leached into the ground water and was now contaminating one well after
the other.

Hi Joerg,
AIUI, the legislation to require 10% oxygenator in gasoline was
promoted by farmers. In response--and eager to promote social goodness
and progress in general--the legislature reasoned impeccably "Gee, who
doesn't love farmers?," and so it was happily agreed to.

The intended oxygenator was ethanol, it just turned out that this was
kind of inconvenient, as ethanol was expensive, and enough would've
been needed to make up 10% of CA's gasoline. Darn, details can be
annoying, can't they?

Some genius then figured out MTBE could be synthesized from butane or
methane or some such, which was plentiful, and cheaper.

The fuel burns cleaner but contains less energy, so you have to burn
proportionally more of it. And, MTBE is nasty--it's a potent
carcinogen, and gets into the groundwater.

Net environmental result: more toxic gasoline you have to burn more
of, the spawning of an industry-plus-infrastructure for large-scale
manufacture, transport, and distribution of an unpleasant poison, and
large-scale contaminations from the inevitable spills & accidents
involving it.

Moral: There's nothing high-minded politicians can't do when they
just put their thinking cap[sic] on.

Cheers,
James Arthur
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