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lead free solder again
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Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:39 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello James,


Quote:
AIUI, the legislation to require 10% oxygenator in gasoline was
promoted by farmers. In response--and eager to promote social goodness
and progress in general--the legislature reasoned impeccably "Gee, who
doesn't love farmers?," and so it was happily agreed to.

The intended oxygenator was ethanol, it just turned out that this was
kind of inconvenient, as ethanol was expensive, and enough would've
been needed to make up 10% of CA's gasoline. Darn, details can be
annoying, can't they?


Plus most of the affected farmers weren't in California but in the mid
west so it wouldn't benefit their constituents much. That would also
mean increased pollution because the stuff would need to be hauled. But
I guess this is too complicated of a thinking process for some of the
decision makers. Those darn details.


Quote:
Some genius then figured out MTBE could be synthesized from butane or
methane or some such, which was plentiful, and cheaper.

The fuel burns cleaner but contains less energy, so you have to burn
proportionally more of it. And, MTBE is nasty--it's a potent
carcinogen, and gets into the groundwater.


Well, it did get into the ground water. It was one of those "oh s..t"
scenarios. Europe might be in for one of those as well with their RoHS.
I hope not but if they do it'll be very nasty.


Quote:
Net environmental result: more toxic gasoline you have to burn more
of, the spawning of an industry-plus-infrastructure for large-scale
manufacture, transport, and distribution of an unpleasant poison, and
large-scale contaminations from the inevitable spills & accidents
involving it.

Moral: There's nothing high-minded politicians can't do when they
just put their thinking cap[sic] on.


Sadly, that is true. However, in America we have a rather well
functioning democratic process that allows anybody to take part. So if
there is an issue and a sufficient number of constituents aren't happy
and make that known, then usually something is done about it. And when
they get really unhappy their can even recall governors directly.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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pomerado@hotmail.com
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 19 Jun 2006
Posts: 41

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
Quote:
Net environmental result: more toxic gasoline you have to burn more
of, the spawning of an industry-plus-infrastructure for large-scale
manufacture, transport, and distribution of an unpleasant poison, and
large-scale contaminations from the inevitable spills & accidents
involving it.

"More toxic" gasoline?

If the internal-combustion engiune fueled by gasoline were a new
invention, it would not be permitted under our current consumer
protection regime.
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Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:00 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello Richard,

Quote:

Net environmental result: more toxic gasoline you have to burn more
of, the spawning of an industry-plus-infrastructure for large-scale
manufacture, transport, and distribution of an unpleasant poison, and
large-scale contaminations from the inevitable spills & accidents
involving it.

"More toxic" gasoline?


Not gasoline that is more toxic. What James meant was more consumption
of gasoline. That is because oxygenators reduce the BTU per gallon and
that reduces gas mileage. AFAICT from my vehicle it is about a 10%
increase for current California gas. It was a few years ago that I
tested and it could have changed because MTBE was phased out.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Joerg wrote:
Quote:
Hello Richard,


Net environmental result: more toxic gasoline you have to burn more
of, the spawning of an industry-plus-infrastructure for large-scale
manufacture, transport, and distribution of an unpleasant poison, and
large-scale contaminations from the inevitable spills & accidents
involving it.

"More toxic" gasoline?


Not gasoline that is more toxic. What James meant was more consumption
of gasoline. That is because oxygenators reduce the BTU per gallon and
that reduces gas mileage. AFAICT from my vehicle it is about a 10%
increase for current California gas. It was a few years ago that I
tested and it could have changed because MTBE was phased out.

Hi Joerg,
Richard has it half-right: I meant both a) a larger quantity of fuel
must be burned for the same motive result, nullifying the emissions
advantage, and also b) a fuel of higher toxicity results, due to the
MTBE. Gasoline was never very good to drink, but MTBE made it
considerably worse, and a lot harder to get rid of.

Best,
James
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Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:59 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello James,

Quote:

"More toxic" gasoline?

Not gasoline that is more toxic. What James meant was more consumption
of gasoline. That is because oxygenators reduce the BTU per gallon and
that reduces gas mileage. AFAICT from my vehicle it is about a 10%
increase for current California gas. It was a few years ago that I
tested and it could have changed because MTBE was phased out.

Richard has it half-right: I meant both a) a larger quantity of fuel
must be burned for the same motive result, nullifying the emissions
advantage, and also b) a fuel of higher toxicity results, due to the
MTBE. Gasoline was never very good to drink, but MTBE made it
considerably worse, and a lot harder to get rid of.


True, when the gasoline isn't combusted in an engine but leaks into the
ground then it certainly is more toxic. Gas stations are one concern but
I guess nobody in politics has thought about all the fuel that spills
while refilling lawn mowers and generators. Most people I have seen
doing that did not use funnels.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Joerg wrote:
Quote:
Hello James,


"More toxic" gasoline?

Not gasoline that is more toxic. What James meant was more consumption
of gasoline. That is because oxygenators reduce the BTU per gallon and
that reduces gas mileage. AFAICT from my vehicle it is about a 10%
increase for current California gas. It was a few years ago that I
tested and it could have changed because MTBE was phased out.

Richard has it half-right: I meant both a) a larger quantity of fuel
must be burned for the same motive result, nullifying the emissions
advantage, and also b) a fuel of higher toxicity results, due to the
MTBE. Gasoline was never very good to drink, but MTBE made it
considerably worse, and a lot harder to get rid of.


True, when the gasoline isn't combusted in an engine but leaks into the
ground then it certainly is more toxic. Gas stations are one concern but
I guess nobody in politics has thought about all the fuel that spills
while refilling lawn mowers and generators. Most people I have seen
doing that did not use funnels.

Gasoline stations were the biggest offenders. Eventually those
underground tanks leak. It's very hard to notice a leak in an
underground tank that large, whose contents are constantly being turned
over, so quite a bit of gasoline can escape over time before being
detected. My former outfit got some nibbles on solving that
leak-detection problem (though we never landed the business).

Once in the ground, a "plume" of contamination spreads from the
point-source, poisoning the soil, and reaching groundwater deep in the
earth some time later. Sometimes a lot later. We had a big local
to-do some years back after discovering contamination in the ground
water, which was traced to a minor leaks at couple of gas stations.
Other stations were then examined, and *most* of them leaked.
One-by-one, the stations have all closed down, exhumed their tanks, and
put in new ones, but the MTBE is in the ground to stay; we'll have to
live with it.

Best regards,
James Arthur
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Richard the Dreaded Liber
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 1143

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:55 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

On Mon, 17 Jul 2006 23:01:27 -0400, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Quote:
On Tue, 18 Jul 2006 02:39:22 GMT, the renowned "Rich, but drunk"
On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 05:08:23 +0000, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

So here's my best shot: Suppose you, Rich, fulfill all your emotional
needs, but eliminate all vitamin C from your diet. Subsist on, say,
Crisco. Then, three months from now, let's see how many teeth you have
left.

What makes you think he has any teeth right now?

I've seen the pictures!

(Rich posted his grinning mug a ways back, and grinning for good
reason, as he was PhotoShopped in between a pair of sightly babes.)

How do you know the teeth weren't photoshopped as well?

Boy, it must suck to be you!

For you, an evening's entertainment is to come up with cheap shots at
Rich Grise?

Actually, Gigi, Sharon, and Chandra are quite supple. Wink
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/Me+Gals1.jpg
http://www.abiengr.com/~sysop/images/Me+Gals2.jpg

Wanna see a picture of the original negative? >:-

Hmm... ca. 1972-73 ?


No, I was much skinnier in the '70's. Wink These pix are more like the
late 1980's - almost 1990.

Thanks!
Rich
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Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:25 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello James,

Quote:

Gasoline stations were the biggest offenders. Eventually those
underground tanks leak. It's very hard to notice a leak in an
underground tank that large, whose contents are constantly being turned
over, so quite a bit of gasoline can escape over time before being
detected. My former outfit got some nibbles on solving that
leak-detection problem (though we never landed the business).


In Germany that problem has been solved since many decades. By law
in-ground oil tanks for heating oil, whether residential or commercial,
must be double-walled. There is a test liquid between inner and outer
wall. When either wall is compromised the level of this fluid begins to
drop and a really loud alarm sounds, two red lights flash etc. The
disable-switch of this unit carries a tamper seal and IIRC the inspector
who checks the furnace every year is supposed to test the unit and look
for signs of tampering.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Joerg wrote:
Quote:
Hello James,


Gasoline stations were the biggest offenders. Eventually those
underground tanks leak. It's very hard to notice a leak in an
underground tank that large, whose contents are constantly being turned
over, so quite a bit of gasoline can escape over time before being
detected. My former outfit got some nibbles on solving that
leak-detection problem (though we never landed the business).


In Germany that problem has been solved since many decades. By law
in-ground oil tanks for heating oil, whether residential or commercial,
must be double-walled. There is a test liquid between inner and outer
wall. When either wall is compromised the level of this fluid begins to
drop and a really loud alarm sounds, two red lights flash etc. The
disable-switch of this unit carries a tamper seal and IIRC the inspector
who checks the furnace every year is supposed to test the unit and look
for signs of tampering.

Very sensible, and elegant. The guys who came to us wanted an
electronic solution, to track a tank's in-and-outflow with infinite,
impractical precision (we were to provide the telemetry), but they
failed; electronics isn't always the answer.

Regards,
James Arthur
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

Quote:
Joerg wrote:
Hello James,


Gasoline stations were the biggest offenders. Eventually those
underground tanks leak. It's very hard to notice a leak in an
underground tank that large, whose contents are constantly being turned
over, so quite a bit of gasoline can escape over time before being
detected. My former outfit got some nibbles on solving that
leak-detection problem (though we never landed the business).


In Germany that problem has been solved since many decades. By law
in-ground oil tanks for heating oil, whether residential or commercial,
must be double-walled. There is a test liquid between inner and outer
wall. When either wall is compromised the level of this fluid begins to
drop and a really loud alarm sounds, two red lights flash etc. The
disable-switch of this unit carries a tamper seal and IIRC the inspector
who checks the furnace every year is supposed to test the unit and look
for signs of tampering.

Very sensible, and elegant. The guys who came to us wanted an
electronic solution, to track a tank's in-and-outflow with infinite,
impractical precision (we were to provide the telemetry), but they
failed; electronics isn't always the answer.

The concept was the problem in this case.

Graham
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dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Eeyore wrote:
Quote:
dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

Joerg wrote:
Hello James,


Gasoline stations were the biggest offenders. Eventually those
underground tanks leak. It's very hard to notice a leak in an
underground tank that large, whose contents are constantly being turned
over, so quite a bit of gasoline can escape over time before being
detected. My former outfit got some nibbles on solving that
leak-detection problem (though we never landed the business).


In Germany that problem has been solved since many decades. By law
in-ground oil tanks for heating oil, whether residential or commercial,
must be double-walled. There is a test liquid between inner and outer
wall. When either wall is compromised the level of this fluid begins to
drop and a really loud alarm sounds, two red lights flash etc. The
disable-switch of this unit carries a tamper seal and IIRC the inspector
who checks the furnace every year is supposed to test the unit and look
for signs of tampering.

Very sensible, and elegant. The guys who came to us wanted an
electronic solution, to track a tank's in-and-outflow with infinite,
impractical precision (we were to provide the telemetry), but they
failed; electronics isn't always the answer.

The concept was the problem in this case.

Graham

Indeed. "If a problem has no solution, it may not be a problem, but
a fact -- not to be solved, but coped with..." Shimon Peres

Best,
James Arthur
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Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello James,

Quote:

Gasoline stations were the biggest offenders. Eventually those
underground tanks leak. It's very hard to notice a leak in an
underground tank that large, whose contents are constantly being turned
over, so quite a bit of gasoline can escape over time before being
detected. My former outfit got some nibbles on solving that
leak-detection problem (though we never landed the business).


In Germany that problem has been solved since many decades. By law
in-ground oil tanks for heating oil, whether residential or commercial,
must be double-walled. There is a test liquid between inner and outer
wall. When either wall is compromised the level of this fluid begins to
drop and a really loud alarm sounds, two red lights flash etc. The
disable-switch of this unit carries a tamper seal and IIRC the inspector
who checks the furnace every year is supposed to test the unit and look
for signs of tampering.


Very sensible, and elegant. The guys who came to us wanted an
electronic solution, to track a tank's in-and-outflow with infinite,
impractical precision (we were to provide the telemetry), but they
failed; electronics isn't always the answer.


A totalizer? That's ridiculous, that idea probably came from a bureaucrat.

It seems like the usual "not invented here" syndrome. Why not just copy
the German system if it works? But NIH syndromes can be found over there
as well. Instead of copying California's proven Fastrak toll system they
absolutely had to invent their own, causing various initial blunders.

The leak detectors in Germany are dirt simple, I'll try to recall it
from my gray cells: A small pipe from the intermediate cavity into the
house connects to a little reservoir the size of a two-gallon paint
bucket. Inside is a float switch and that connects to the flashing
lights and siren unit. No electronics, plain and simple. The reservoir
has a side glass so the inspector merely has to look, no need to gauge
with a dip stick. The reservoir's mounting height is critical and must
be matched to the buried tank, typically by using a water level. I think
they also have units for tankside mounting but ours was inside the
house. BTW, they also have sensors (now mandatory AFAIR) that connect to
the tanker truck upon delivery. This sensor shuts off the truck's pump
when a certain fill level is exceeded, to avoid topping off spills.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
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Ken Smith
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 1727

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

In article <QV9vg.123498$H71.62410@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com>,
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
[....]
Quote:
Plus most of the affected farmers weren't in California but in the mid
west so it wouldn't benefit their constituents much. That would also
mean increased pollution because the stuff would need to be hauled. But
I guess this is too complicated of a thinking process for some of the
decision makers. Those darn details.

California tried to get a waver from the federal government and was turned
down. MTBE was imposed on CA from Washington.

For slightly more cost, the oil companies were willing to make fuel
without the MTBE but that, in fact, burned cleaner. It was a question of
which hydrocarbons were in the fuel. I think the trick was that the
longer and shorter chains are the trouble makers but the middle length
ones less so. By a bit of refinery tuning, the cleaner gas could be made.

[....]

Quote:
Sadly, that is true. However, in America we have a rather well
functioning democratic process that allows anybody to take part. So if
there is an issue and a sufficient number of constituents aren't happy
and make that known, then usually something is done about it. And when
they get really unhappy their can even recall governors directly.

Unfortunately, on the down side, there is a lack of information for the
voters to work with. Democracy requires an informed public to function
well. American TV "news" programs are shallow enough that you could wade
through them without getting your ankles wet.

On technical matters, news programs are just horrid. The best example I
have is from several years back. The news tease said that someone had
invented a new more efficient electric motor. I stayed up and watched
because I was interested. They showed you his wife, his dog, and his
workshop but not the motor. The only technical detail given was that the
capacitor was larger. There was nothing about how much better or whether
it was larger or cost more or anything like that. Imagine that a ballot
measure was put forward requiring the state to use these motors. Chances
are it would pass. After all, his dog *was* cute.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge
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