FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups 
 ProfileProfile   PreferencesPreferences   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 
Forum index » Electronix » design
lead free solder again
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 3 of 12 [178 Posts] View previous topic :: View next topic
Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ..., 10, 11, 12 Next
Author Message
Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

nospam wrote:

Quote:

Tin whiskers have nothing to do with lead-free or non lead-free parts.
It only depends on what kind of solder you are using.

I have just finished another design and several parts were only
available in non-lead. We used regular lead solder, no problem.

Yet....

The picture linked by the OP specifically shows whiskers growing on the tin
plated leads of a crystal in the area which had not been Sn/Pb solder
dipped.


Yes, it's a concern for all tin plated surfaces. Sometimes you can get
other plating but typically only on high-end parts. Ultimetaly time will
tell. If this RoHS and WEEE stuff turns out to be a major blunder, and
chances are that it does, we'll probably see a reversal in
manufacturer's reactions. To some extent we are already seeing that,
not in parts but in shipping policies. Don't know which one it was but I
have seen in the terms of one supplier that they simply will not ship
certain merchandise to Europe anymore.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Back to top
Frank Bemelman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:45 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> schreef in
bericht news:44B3E0C9.B45422AB@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com...
Quote:


ian field wrote:

The big companies you mention are absolutely delighted that "through no
fault of their own" their products will have very short lifetimes, the
intermittent nature of lead free solder failure has created a consumer
mindset that once an item fails it will continue to give nothing but
trouble
no matter how competently repaired, so most equipment is thrown out at
the
first hint of intermittent operation!!!

Which is of course about as *ungreen* as it gets despite the apparent
motive
behind RoHS !

Somehow I just don't believe you're complaining because of the environmental
issues. Are you sure its got nothing to do with the hassles it gives, or
with
the fear for the unknown?

Let's see what happens. If it turns out as a disaster, nothing to worry.
We're all in the same boat. If it can't be solved, we'll be back to
leaded solder in notime.

BTW, I don't like lead-free either, it doesn't solder as nicely as the
good old leaded stuff. But it doesn't upset me, and my prototype stuff
and bench experiments don't suffer either.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
Back to top
Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:02 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Klaus Bahner wrote:

Quote:

The bigger problem, is that while industry sectors can get exemptions,
it's becoming very difficult to get leaded components any more. Many
vendors have simply dropped them. And we are now starting to see that
many vendors will never be making new parts in a leaded option. So
unless the aerospace manufacturers have hangers full of leaded parts,
the exemption is no use. And even if they do have good stocks, they
will be locked into 2005/06 technology.

Tin whiskers have nothing to do with lead-free or non lead-free parts.
It only depends on what kind of solder you are using.

That's wholly wrong. I was only reading recently about studies on whisker growth
on tin plated component leads.

I think it's accelerated by both high temperature and humidity btw.

Graham
Back to top
Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:13 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello Frank,

Quote:

The big companies you mention are absolutely delighted that "through no
fault of their own" their products will have very short lifetimes, the
intermittent nature of lead free solder failure has created a consumer
mindset that once an item fails it will continue to give nothing but

trouble

no matter how competently repaired, so most equipment is thrown out at

the

first hint of intermittent operation!!!

Which is of course about as *ungreen* as it gets despite the apparent

motive

behind RoHS !


Somehow I just don't believe you're complaining because of the environmental
issues. Are you sure its got nothing to do with the hassles it gives, or
with
the fear for the unknown?


Ahem, couldn't it be the fear of the known? What telco companies found
out in the 40's can't simply be legislated away. Except that some
Eurocrats think they could. When you have a known problem and find a
solution (adding lead in this case) you typically don't go back to the
old stuff sixty years later without significant and proven mitigation.
Well, guess in Brussels they do that...


Quote:
Let's see what happens. If it turns out as a disaster, nothing to worry.


With all due respect, I believe that position is a wee bit naive. Or
like they say in France, laissez faire. No worry, be happy, KABOOM.


Quote:
We're all in the same boat. If it can't be solved, we'll be back to
leaded solder in notime.


And, of course, there will be no unintended consequences such as legacy
RoHS equipment that is going to be in use and where nobody knows when
and how spectacular the failure will be, will there?


Quote:
BTW, I don't like lead-free either, it doesn't solder as nicely as the
good old leaded stuff. But it doesn't upset me, and my prototype stuff
and bench experiments don't suffer either.


Prototype stuff is fine. We'll all learn how to handle lead-free. The
problems may or may not surface after a few years. But when they do
surface, boy, I don't want to be the VP of Quality Control at one of the
manufacturers.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Back to top
Frank Bemelman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:51 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht
news:PnVsg.63656$Lm5.55038@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
Quote:

Ahem, couldn't it be the fear of the known? What telco companies found
out in the 40's can't simply be legislated away. Except that some
Eurocrats think they could. When you have a known problem and find a
solution (adding lead in this case) you typically don't go back to the
old stuff sixty years later without significant and proven mitigation.
Well, guess in Brussels they do that...

Adding lead turned out to be a problem as well, so it was only
a half baked solution. Removing the lead in our car fuel was
not a bad idea. The 40% percent lead in solder is a *lot* and
seems worth looking into. Not at all costs/risks, so there are
a couple of exemptions already made.


Quote:
Let's see what happens. If it turns out as a disaster, nothing to worry.


With all due respect, I believe that position is a wee bit naive. Or
like they say in France, laissez faire. No worry, be happy, KABOOM.

Au contraire, the wasted lead is the ticking time bomb.

Quote:

We're all in the same boat. If it can't be solved, we'll be back to
leaded solder in notime.


And, of course, there will be no unintended consequences such as legacy
RoHS equipment that is going to be in use and where nobody knows when
and how spectacular the failure will be, will there?

Ah, it *is* fear of the unknown ;)

Quote:
BTW, I don't like lead-free either, it doesn't solder as nicely as the
good old leaded stuff. But it doesn't upset me, and my prototype stuff
and bench experiments don't suffer either.


Prototype stuff is fine. We'll all learn how to handle lead-free. The
problems may or may not surface after a few years. But when they do
surface, boy, I don't want to be the VP of Quality Control at one of the
manufacturers.

All the VP's of QC are in the same boat as well. They all earn shitloads
of money and can retire at 40.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
Back to top
Chris Jones
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 278

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:04 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Eeyore wrote:

Quote:


mrdarrett@gmail.com wrote:

I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers

So... is Airbus required to go for lead-free solder too, for RoHS and
all that...?

Hoo-boy... if so, wouldn't want to fly on any Airbus aircraft built
after 2006, then...

Several product sectors have been exempted. Tells it all really.
http://www.pb-free.info/rohsexemptions.htm

If avionics aren't in there ( possibly covered by other legislation )
it'll be a worry given the high levels of vibration.

Some bright spark applied for an exemption for pro-audio ( no doubt on the
basis that ppl expect the stuff to last longer than 2-5 yrs ).

Shame that the video guys weren't so well on the ball !

Graham

Personally I would like to see a blanket exemption for any product which has
a warranty exceeding 10 years (probably with the companies contributing to
some kind of insurance scheme to ensure that the warranty will be honoured,
rather than giving an unfair advantage to companies that know in advance
that they don't intend to be around in 10 years' time).

People seem inclined to buy crap that is designed to fail in a few weeks
whether it's lead free or not. That kind of junk probably should be lead
free, (and people should have the brains not to buy it also) but if a
manufacturer makes a decent effort to build a reliable product and give a
good warranty then it makes sense to allow them to use the most reliable
materials particularly since it will in any case be mandatory to recycle
this stuff when it does need replacing.

Chris
Back to top
Joerg
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3533

PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:13 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello Frank,

Quote:

Ahem, couldn't it be the fear of the known? What telco companies found
out in the 40's can't simply be legislated away. Except that some
Eurocrats think they could. When you have a known problem and find a
solution (adding lead in this case) you typically don't go back to the
old stuff sixty years later without significant and proven mitigation.
Well, guess in Brussels they do that...

Adding lead turned out to be a problem as well, so it was only
a half baked solution. Removing the lead in our car fuel was
not a bad idea. The 40% percent lead in solder is a *lot* and
seems worth looking into. Not at all costs/risks, so there are
a couple of exemptions already made.


Half baked? It worked. In cars it was easier, basically better valve
seats. My 1969 Citroen (engine designed in the late 30's or so) was
quite modern in that respect. It had no problems with unleaded.

Quote:


Let's see what happens. If it turns out as a disaster, nothing to worry.

With all due respect, I believe that position is a wee bit naive. Or
like they say in France, laissez faire. No worry, be happy, KABOOM.

Au contraire, the wasted lead is the ticking time bomb.


Nothing to worry? We'll watch that from a safe distance :-)

Quote:

We're all in the same boat. If it can't be solved, we'll be back to
leaded solder in notime.

And, of course, there will be no unintended consequences such as legacy
RoHS equipment that is going to be in use and where nobody knows when
and how spectacular the failure will be, will there?

Ah, it *is* fear of the unknown ;)


Note that I didn't say "if" but "when" and "how spectacular". Just wait
until a couple of pins on the uC of a gas furnace controller let go
because the solder joints fouled up.

Quote:

BTW, I don't like lead-free either, it doesn't solder as nicely as the
good old leaded stuff. But it doesn't upset me, and my prototype stuff
and bench experiments don't suffer either.

Prototype stuff is fine. We'll all learn how to handle lead-free. The
problems may or may not surface after a few years. But when they do
surface, boy, I don't want to be the VP of Quality Control at one of the
manufacturers.

All the VP's of QC are in the same boat as well. They all earn shitloads
of money and can retire at 40.


Not around here, at least not for small companies. Small companies tend
to be less politically connected and that can burn then when RoHS does
backfire.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Back to top
Roy L. Fuchs
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 25 Dec 2005
Posts: 1208

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:44 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

On Tue, 11 Jul 2006 13:03:21 +0200, Klaus Bahner
<Klaus.Bahner@ieee.org> Gave us:

Quote:
Tin whiskers have nothing to do with lead-free or non lead-free parts.
It only depends on what kind of solder you are using.


This is SO absolutely wrong.
Back to top
Robert Baer
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 1159

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:16 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Frank Bemelman wrote:

Quote:
mrdarrett@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:1152568963.513696.147460@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

I saw some pictures of those "tin whiskers", and I didn't know the
problem was so great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_whiskers


Didn't know that lead was added not until the late 40's.

But if you spray finished boards with some kind of coating,
would that not prevent the growth of whiskers?
** Maybe and maybe not. Results are highly variable.

Try something and i might work and someone else might have problems.
Absolutely guaranteed to be variable.

Quote:

Anyway, I don't hear much complaining from large companies
so it might not be such a big deal after all. Time will
tell, of course.
Back to top
Klaus Bahner
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Quote:
unless the aerospace manufacturers have hangers full of leaded parts,
the exemption is no use. And even if they do have good stocks, they
will be locked into 2005/06 technology.

Tin whiskers have nothing to do with lead-free or non lead-free parts.
It only depends on what kind of solder you are using.


That's wholly wrong. I was only reading recently about studies on whisker growth
on tin plated component leads.

Ok, I should have been more precise. Even if there are only lead free
parts available you are still able to process them in a non-lead-free
process, which means you can easily coat your parts with a lead/tin
alloy. Comes automatically when you reflow SMD components with lead/tin
alloy, leaded parts may require special handling, if you mount them with
largely exposed leads - but standoffs might be anyway a good idea in
such a situation. The popular picture of the tin whisker on the crystal
lead shows a crystal with a rather unintelligent mounting position
anyway. Avoiding mechanical stress, i.e. bending, shouldn't be a big
deal if you adapt your production to a lead free process.

Besides that I just don't think it's appropiate to call RoHS for the
doomsday of all electronics. So far, the incidents on NASA's popular tin
whisker site seem rather exotic to me (a satellite for example is
working under ultra high vacuum, extreme temperature and high radiation
conditions). I don't know whether RoHS will be a more complex problem
than adapting to other production issues. So far I think chances are
rather high that you can control it in the same way as other production
issues. (How many failures of end products were caused because
production plants didn't stick to the correct soldering temperature
profile or didn't bake components correctly?)


Klaus
Back to top
Klaus Bahner
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Hello Joerg,

Quote:
And, of course, there will be no unintended consequences such as legacy
RoHS equipment that is going to be in use and where nobody knows when
and how spectacular the failure will be, will there?

Well, this is true, but RoHS is not the only case where this is true.
How many spectacular failures are to come, due to crappy but cheap
components, moving production to China, which causes reliability
problems both due to low poduction quality and swamping the world market
with counterfeit parts. The latter is for maximizing someone's profit,
RoHS at least has a more appealing motive.


Quote:
Note that I didn't say "if" but "when" and "how spectacular". Just wait
until a couple of pins on the uC of a gas furnace controller let go
because the solder joints fouled up.

I don't think you can safely say "when", "if" is still appropiate. Tin
whiskers are far from being understood, it is believed that tin/lead
solder is a remedy for them. I agree that RoHS is a large scale
experiment, but an experiment with unknown result.
With regard to your gas furnace controller: no mission critical system
must blow up, just because a solder joint fouled up. Defective solder
joints were also a common problem in leaded times :-)

Quote:
BTW, I don't like lead-free either, it doesn't solder as nicely as the
good old leaded stuff. But it doesn't upset me, and my prototype stuff
and bench experiments don't suffer either.

Prototype stuff is fine. We'll all learn how to handle lead-free. The
problems may or may not surface after a few years. But when they do
surface, boy, I don't want to be the VP of Quality Control at one of the
manufacturers.

Don't know, most consumer products are nowadays anyway products with a
life time of less than a few years. RoHS is mostly directed to this
market. Personally I don't think it will change much there. The end user
doesn't care whether his/her gadget stopped working because a tin
whisker appeared or an undersized and overheated capacitor just shorted
out. Finally, I don't think there are many VPs of Quality Control left
in the consumer business anyway. Most of it looks as if everything
which comes from the assembly line is shipped without even a simple
on/off test.

Klaus
Back to top
Barry Lennox
electronics forum addict


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 83

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:35 am    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

On Wed, 12 Jul 2006 12:01:39 +0200, Klaus Bahner
<Klaus.Bahner@ieee.org> wrote:

snip.


Quote:

Besides that I just don't think it's appropiate to call RoHS for the
doomsday of all electronics. So far, the incidents on NASA's popular tin
whisker site seem rather exotic to me (a satellite for example is
working under ultra high vacuum, extreme temperature and high radiation
conditions). I don't know whether RoHS will be a more complex problem
than adapting to other production issues. So far I think chances are
rather high that you can control it in the same way as other production
issues. (How many failures of end products were caused because
production plants didn't stick to the correct soldering temperature
profile or didn't bake components correctly?)

It's not "so far" at all. Have you not heard of the "Swatch" issue?

But, anyway, the much bigger question is: what's the point of it all?
Where is the proof that lead leaches out of consumer electronic goods
in landfills and causes the alleged problem?

And why does the world need items made with a 37 Deg higher temp. That
energy has to come from somewhere. It may be a minor increase in the
overall energy account, but once again, where is the proof that lead
in solder is a problem?

And while I'm happy for the Euro-crats to take credit (I'm sure they
will) if it all works out fine, I'd also demand that they carry the
can if it does not. Who are they, and what are their personal assets?
Swatches' lawyers might be after them soon enough.

Barry Lennox
Back to top
Frank Bemelman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 501

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

"Barry Lennox" <bt.l.barryl@spamgourmet.com> schreef in bericht
news:4sk9b21k81f5kai0b3rcsruh6tnp79dajb@4ax.com...
Quote:

But, anyway, the much bigger question is: what's the point of it all?
Where is the proof that lead leaches out of consumer electronic goods
in landfills and causes the alleged problem?

In many places you don't even have landfills. The rubbish is
partly recycled and the rest is burned. The question is,
where does all the lead end up?

Quote:
And why does the world need items made with a 37 Deg higher temp. That
energy has to come from somewhere. It may be a minor increase in the
overall energy account, but once again, where is the proof that lead
in solder is a problem?

That 37 degrees is a silly argument. The total amount of energy
needed to solder a board is peanuts, even if needed to be soldered
at +100 degrees.

Quote:
And while I'm happy for the Euro-crats to take credit (I'm sure they
will) if it all works out fine, I'd also demand that they carry the
can if it does not. Who are they, and what are their personal assets?
Swatches' lawyers might be after them soon enough.

Time will tell.


--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email)
Back to top
Klaus Bahner
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:35 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Quote:


It's not "so far" at all. Have you not heard of the "Swatch" issue?

Sure did I hear about it. But I was not able to read the original Swatch
report. Anyone knows where to find it? All I heard about it, were second
hand stories, rather confusing. Allegedely Swatch did use SnCu solder,
although SnCuAg seems to be the industry standard elsewhere. Maybe
Swatch just chose the wrong solder? Furthermore I heard that the Swatch
reports talks about tensile stresses as main reason for whisker growth -
which would be contradictory to the research literature. It is agreed on
that compressive stress is one of the main driving forces for whisker
growth. So not having enough information, the "Swatch" issue rises more
questions than answers. Sure Swatch apparently has a problem with lead
free production, but I don't think the swatch issue is sufficient to
conclude, that everyone and all electronics manufacturer will face the
same problems.

Quote:
But, anyway, the much bigger question is: what's the point of it all?
Where is the proof that lead leaches out of consumer electronic goods
in landfills and causes the alleged problem?

Don't know for sure, just guessing. First of all, most of the consumer
electronics waste in the EU ends in a incinerator. Lead and the other
banned RoHS substances are a problem here.

Quote:
And why does the world need items made with a 37 Deg higher temp. That
energy has to come from somewhere. It may be a minor increase in the
overall energy account, but once again, where is the proof that lead
in solder is a problem?

I don't see anything wrong with getting rid of unhealthy substances.
There might be more promissing areas than lead in solder, but this
doesn't make it wrong to attack lead. Certainly, industry will not take
action on its own. So some external force must become active.

Quote:
can if it does not. Who are they, and what are their personal assets?
Swatches' lawyers might be after them soon enough.

Since when can you sue a democratic elected representative? They just
passed a bill we may not like, they didn't commit a crime!

Klaus
Back to top
Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:50 pm    Post subject: Re: lead free solder again Reply with quote

Frank Bemelman wrote:

Quote:
"Barry Lennox" <bt.l.barryl@spamgourmet.com> schreef in bericht
news:4sk9b21k81f5kai0b3rcsruh6tnp79dajb@4ax.com...

But, anyway, the much bigger question is: what's the point of it all?
Where is the proof that lead leaches out of consumer electronic goods
in landfills and causes the alleged problem?

In many places you don't even have landfills. The rubbish is
partly recycled and the rest is burned. The question is,
where does all the lead end up?

It doesn't tend to get burnt in Europe which is where the legislation currently
applies. So the point is moot.

In any case, waste is dealt with under WEEE.


Quote:
And why does the world need items made with a 37 Deg higher temp. That
energy has to come from somewhere. It may be a minor increase in the
overall energy account, but once again, where is the proof that lead
in solder is a problem?

That 37 degrees is a silly argument. The total amount of energy
needed to solder a board is peanuts, even if needed to be soldered
at +100 degrees.

That's not what the board stuffers say.


Quote:
And while I'm happy for the Euro-crats to take credit (I'm sure they
will) if it all works out fine, I'd also demand that they carry the
can if it does not. Who are they, and what are their personal assets?
Swatches' lawyers might be after them soon enough.

Time will tell.

Oh it will for sure.

Graham
Back to top
Google

Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Page 3 of 12 [178 Posts] Goto page:  Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ..., 10, 11, 12 Next
View previous topic :: View next topic
The time now is Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:29 am | All times are GMT
Forum index » Electronix » design
Jump to:  

Similar Topics
Topic Author Forum Replies Last Post
No new posts Free Porn New Resource MovieJerker Basics 0 Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:37 pm
No new posts 12 volts Lead acid battery charger IC Ayesha design 0 Mon Jan 29, 2007 5:20 pm
No new posts What are the obstacles to building a pen-sized free-elect... Radium Basics 47 Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:08 am
No new posts Any decent free electrical cad programs out there ??? cornytheclown@hotmail.com cad 26 Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:23 am
No new posts light sensitive cell as pixel free ccd and interferometry... mustafa umut sarac design 2 Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:21 pm

Copyright © 2004-2005 DeniX Solutions SRL
Other DeniX Solutions sites: Unix/Linux blog |  Unix/Linux documentation |  Unix/Linux forums |  Medicine forum |  Science forum  |  Send and track newsletters


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group