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Paul E. Schoen electronics forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:13 am Post subject:
Ideas for Smart SCR Control Board
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I have built my first prototype of a PIC-based SCR controller board, and I
have started preliminary assembly coding and testing. Most of the functions
are fairly simple, but I would appreciate comments on the best way to do
the required functions and also some which are future enhancements or
special purpose variants.
This is a single phase switch used to control loads which range from
several hundred milliamps to several hundred amps, at voltages from several
volts to about 600 VAC. The load is a transformer which steps down to about
12 VAC at currents up to 50,000 amperes with an inductive load (circuit
breaker) which may interrupt the flow of current at any point on the
waveform.
To minimize DC offset, the initial phase angle is delayed about 60 to 90
degrees. It is adjusted so that all subsequent current peaks are about
equal, to produce consistent true RMS readings and breaker operation.
Some problems we have experienced with previous designs are:
(1) Loss of gate triggering to one SCR, causing huge DC currents
(2) Large initial current surges due to remanent magnetism
(3) Need for remote programmable initial phase angle due to load variations
My new design uses a PIC18F242 which has many advanced features. I have
added an RS232 port for possible diagnostics and remote programming, but
the main control inputs are INIT, ENABLE, and PULSE. There is a BCD switch
to preset a number of cycles in PULSE mode, and a pot to preset nominal
phase angle. I also have a CT to measure the SCR current, and optos to
provide external phase reference and to sense when either SCR has a voltage
on it. I also added a thermistor input for optional temperature sensing.
To solve problem #1, I will first make sure there is voltage of both
polarities across the SCRs before allowing initiation. Once gate voltage
has been applied, I will check that there is no voltage on the
corresponding SCR. An ERROR shutdown will be set if there is a problem, and
shut down before the next half-cycle. This should minimize the fault
current. No current should flow if the first gate did not cause conduction.
If the second gate is faulty, the first half cycle will still cause a large
DC surge, although it will be limited to much less than that produced by a
second half-cycle.
For problem #2, I may monitor the number of half-cycles that pass through
the SCRs, by reading current. An even number of half-cycles should not
produce much remanent magnetism, but an odd number will. If that occurs, I
might be able to initiate a brief "degaussing" cycle by phase firing both
SCRs at a reduced level. This should only occur when the load has tripped.
If the load is still connected, I will simply leave the gates on for an
additional half-cycle to make an even number.
For #3, the easiest way is to use the RS232 connection to program the phase
angle from the remote controller, which also monitors the current waveform
and can detect excessive DC offset that needs correction. However, the
existing systems have only the INIT signal available, used to turn the SCR
on or off. What I plan to do is send a pulse train on the INIT line that
will be interpreted as a programming command to preset the phase angle. It
would only need to be set from 60 to 90 degrees, and to a precision of 3
degrees, so a string of 1 to 10 pulses could simply be counted and used
directly. That may be easier than implementing an eight bit data structure
of marks and spaces that would need to be done in software, rather than a
USART, although possibly the existing USART could be parallelled to the
INIT line and used normally. An algorithm to send data in this format is
probably much simpler than to receive it. This will be a future
enhancement.
I will be using assembly code for most, if not all, of this project,
although I do have a C18 compiler that might be useful for more complex
enhancements. I am using a 14.7456 MHz crystal which divides down nicely
for standard baud rates and a 7200 per second timer interrupt which
provides 3 degrees per tick for phase angle adjustment.
My purpose in posting this is to see if anyone has any suggestions for
better ways to implement the required functions, and also if there may be
other uses for this board. It could probably be adapted easily as a
variable phase-fired controller with voltage or current feedback, and
remotely programmed via RS232. It may be useful for welding applications,
where a preset number of cycles (or time) may be programmed. The components
are not very expensive, perhaps $60 plus $25 for the board, and much of
that is the DC-DC converters I chose to use instead of larger but cheaper
transformer supplies.
Thanks,
Paul
www.pstech-inc.com |
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Stuff electronics forum beginner
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 47
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:01 pm Post subject:
Re: Ideas for Smart SCR Control Board
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Paul E. Schoen wrote:
| Quote: | My new design uses a PIC18F242 which has many advanced features. I have
added an RS232 port for possible diagnostics and remote programming, but
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I can't help you much, but from the Microchip website:
"Not Recommended for new design
The intent of this guide is to provide you with recommendations of
newer products that may be more cost effective and/or have more
features than some of our more mature products. This is not an end of
life notice for these products.
Alternative Device
Please consider using device PIC18F2420"
I don't think you should be using a part that's being phased out for a
new design. |
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Paul E. Schoen electronics forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject:
Re: Ideas for Smart SCR Control Board
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<a7yvm109gf5d1@netzero.com> wrote in message
news:1152712883.939605.273020@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Paul E. Schoen wrote:
My new design uses a PIC18F242 which has many advanced features. I have
added an RS232 port for possible diagnostics and remote programming, but
I can't help you much, but from the Microchip website:
"Not Recommended for new design
The intent of this guide is to provide you with recommendations of
newer products that may be more cost effective and/or have more
features than some of our more mature products. This is not an end of
life notice for these products.
Alternative Device
Please consider using device PIC18F2420"
I don't think you should be using a part that's being phased out for a
new design.
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Thank you very much for the observation. I have ordered samples of the new
part. It is still listed as preliminary, and I think it is fully compatible
for my purposes. It is frustrating when parts are phased out so quickly. I
had originally selected this part about two years ago when it was fairly
new.
Paul |
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Ignoramus15962 electronics forum beginner
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
Posts: 1
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Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject:
Re: Ideas for Smart SCR Control Board
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Interesting project, to make a $60 programmable SCR controller! (this
is coming from a user of a $700 SCR controller in a homwbrew welder)
two random thoughts.
Can you control your magnetism issue by controlling initial phase
angle (ie, alowing a tiny bit of pulse as the first pulse)
Also, can you have an analog, idiot proof way of detecting DC
component and shutting everything down in such case?
i |
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Frithiof Andreas Jensen electronics forum Guru
Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 367
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject:
Re: Ideas for Smart SCR Control Board
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"Paul E. Schoen" <pstech@smart.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:44b4af97$0$3630$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net...
| Quote: | (1) Loss of gate triggering to one SCR, causing huge DC currents
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Use a triple-winding pulse transformer and a single driver so that either
both SCR's are triggered or none are (the one that is reverse biased will
not turn on anyway). You *will* use a pulse-train for the entire conduction
period rather than bet the farm on a single pulse, right??
| Quote: | (2) Large initial current surges due to remanent magnetism
|
You need to switch off at zero current instead of at zero voltage (where the
current is largest). Another way is to ramp the conduction period up over
quite a few cycles. Probably up, in your case, coming from a trip.
| Quote: | (3) Need for remote programmable initial phase angle due to load
variations
|
Make sure that you only update settings when your switch is in a safe state!
| Quote: | For #3, the easiest way is to use the RS232 connection to program the
phase
angle from the remote controller,
|
Maybe you want RS422 or RS485 current loop instead? Noise is an issue, I
bet!
| Quote: |
I will be using assembly code for most, if not all, of this project,
|
Don't - building something does not imply that one should re-invent the
stone axe and fire before moving on to crafting the nails and inventing
geometry With C at least you got some *chance* to reuse the design on
some other chip later when they obsolete it because it did not make enough
sales. |
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zwsdotcom@gmail.com electronics forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 285
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Ideas for Smart SCR Control Board
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Paul E. Schoen wrote:
| Quote: | My new design uses a PIC18F242 which has many advanced features. I have
added an RS232 port for possible diagnostics and remote programming, but
I can't help you much, but from the Microchip website:
"Not Recommended for new design
for my purposes. It is frustrating when parts are phased out so quickly. I
had originally selected this part about two years ago when it was fairly
|
Ha. Our Microchip rep has been telling me for the past two years that
Microchip has only ever discontinued one chip. I guess that is now two. |
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Paul E. Schoen electronics forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
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Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:45 pm Post subject:
Re: Ideas for Smart SCR Control Board
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"Frithiof Andreas Jensen" <frithiof.jensen@diespammerdie.jensen.tdcadsl.dk>
wrote in message news:44b6870c$0$12703$edfadb0f@dread14.news.tele.dk...
| Quote: |
"Paul E. Schoen" <pstech@smart.net> skrev i en meddelelse
news:44b4af97$0$3630$ecde5a14@news.coretel.net...
(1) Loss of gate triggering to one SCR, causing huge DC currents
Use a triple-winding pulse transformer and a single driver so that either
both SCR's are triggered or none are (the one that is reverse biased will
not turn on anyway). You *will* use a pulse-train for the entire
conduction period rather than bet the farm on a single pulse, right??
|
Instead of pulses, I have DC available for both gates via DC-DC converters,
and trigger a current-regulated signal which maintains gate current
continuously. There is also a voltage sensor to make sure the triggered SCR
does not have a voltage on it. The gates on this design are separately
controlled by two PIC GPIOs.
| Quote: |
(2) Large initial current surges due to remanent magnetism
You need to switch off at zero current instead of at zero voltage (where
the current is largest). Another way is to ramp the conduction period up
over quite a few cycles. Probably up, in your case, coming from a trip.
|
An SCR by its very nature as a current latch will turn off at (near) zero
current. However, if this occurs on an odd number of half-cycles, there
will be net DC current into the transformer and it will be magnetized. This
causes a high current surge next time voltage is applied. I think this
happens when the voltage is applied in the same polarity as the current
which caused the magnetization. Possibly applying an initial voltage of the
opposite polarity may eliminate the surge.
When the breaker trips on the secondary of the transformer, it interrupts
the current flow, although there will be some arcing, even at low voltage.
The primary will still have voltage applied, but the current will drop
sharply, and possibly even "ring" due to interaction of the primary
inductance and the SCR snubber. There may also be a power factor correction
capacitor in the circuit, possibly across the output transformer primary,
or across the source ahead of the SCR switch, which may also cause some
ringing. This might not cause as much magnetization as turning off the SCR
after an odd-numbered half-cycle at full current, but I think the
magnetization current is independent of the primary current due to
secondary current. Thus, counting the voltage half-cycles and maintaining
an even number under all conditions may be sufficient.
For circuit breaker testing, it is necessary to have the initial current
half-cycle and all subsequent half-cycles as identical as possible. A high
initial surge introduces DC offset which will cause premature tripping, and
a low initial surge will be below the operating setpoint of the breaker and
cause timing errors. Part of the problem is how the measurement circuitry
determines the current and time, and it is much easier and more consistent
when all the pulses are equal.
| Quote: |
(3) Need for remote programmable initial phase angle due to load
variations
Make sure that you only update settings when your switch is in a safe
state!
For #3, the easiest way is to use the RS232 connection to program the
phase angle from the remote controller,
Maybe you want RS422 or RS485 current loop instead? Noise is an issue, I
bet!
|
Noise is an issue once the SCRs have been triggered and until the breaker
has tripped and all transients have gone away. It should not be a problem
before that happens. However, I will probably be using the initiate signal
to program the phase angle, as it is already connected to a programmable
monitor and control instrument. Previously we had implemented phase
adjustment there, by eliminating the zero crossing and phase delay
circuitry on the SCR board for immediate triggering, but this also removed
the inherent noise filtering on the initiate signal, and we saw frequent
spurious triggering problems.
| Quote: |
I will be using assembly code for most, if not all, of this project,
Don't - building something does not imply that one should re-invent the
stone axe and fire before moving on to crafting the nails and inventing
geometry With C at least you got some *chance* to reuse the design on
some other chip later when they obsolete it because it did not make
enough sales.
|
Some of the PIC code will need to be in assembler for fast and efficient
response to interrupts. Most of the assembly code is at least upward
compatible to higher level PICs, although the PIC18F242 (or PIC18F2420) is
already one of the highest instruction sets outside of the dsPICs, which
are way overkill. Even this may be, but I am familiar with this PIC, and I
have a C18 compiler I can use for it. Some of the less time-critical
functions I may implement with C, but I already have a lot of PIC code for
lower level PICs that should port easily enough. This is for internal use,
mostly, and hopefully Microchip will not obsolete a part without offering a
compatible upgraded part (as in this case).
Thanks for your input. I'll post test results once I build a simulator and
get the tricky details of the code worked out and running.
Paul |
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Paul E. Schoen electronics forum Guru Wannabe
Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 171
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Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:26 am Post subject:
Re: Ideas for Smart SCR Control Board
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"Ignoramus15962" <ignoramus15962@NOSPAM.15962.invalid> wrote in message
news:h0ctg.123195$a53.114177@fe18.usenetserver.com...
| Quote: | Interesting project, to make a $60 programmable SCR controller! (this
is coming from a user of a $700 SCR controller in a homwbrew welder)
two random thoughts.
Can you control your magnetism issue by controlling initial phase
angle (ie, alowing a tiny bit of pulse as the first pulse)
Also, can you have an analog, idiot proof way of detecting DC
component and shutting everything down in such case?
i
|
See more detailed post elsewhere, but it is possible to make an SCR
controller for about $60 or less. I am talking about just the trigger
board, and not the hockey puks, of course. However, we purchase a complete
assembly with heat sinks and two 1200 A, 1800 V SCRs for something less
than $400.
For the gate drives, all you need is an isolated source of about 5-15 VDC
at 200 mA or so for each gate, and an optoisolator to turn on a simple
current-regulated supply for triggering. I have found this more reliable
than single pulses through transformers, and a lot simpler than pulse
trains. I am using DC-DC converters that cost about $10-$20 each, but the
old design used $5 PCB transformers. The other components were a couple
dollars.
The circuitry to provide the phase-delayed turn-on was implemented with a
555 timer that produced an adjustable time delay from each zero crossing,
which then turned on the optoisolators to drive both gates. This is for a
single phase AC switch for inductive loads, not a phase controller.
For a phase-control application, I also included circuitry for a ramp
generator which is reset on each zero crossing, with a comparator to turn
on the SCRs at an adjustable phase delay. It was added to the boards, but
never fully tested or implemented. We will probably be replacing these
boards with the newer design, and the parts are probably not worth
salvaging, so you might be able to get a few of them for the cost of
shipping. For a three phase application, you would probably need two of
these boards and four SCRs, or possibly three and six. The critical thing
for phase firing into a transformer is to be sure the phase angles for both
positive and negative are identical. Otherwise there will be net DC which
will saturate the transformer and cause excess current.
It is not as much a problem if the SCRs are on the secondary, and feeding
the load directly. I had the dubious pleasure recently of working on a huge
DC breaker test set that had 24 water-cooled 4000 ampere SCR hockey puks
which were phase fired to produce up to 35,000 amperes into trip devices.
The phase firing was not a good idea for adjusting the current to the lower
levels they needed, however, because it consisted of a series of small
spikes which were somewhat smoothed by reactors on the output, but they
also caused a time delay in current to the load. We wound up using a huge
480 VAC 140 ampere three phase motorized powerstat to adjust the current,
and we used the SCRs only to turn the output current on and off.
Paul |
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