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Any decent free electrical cad programs out there ???
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Stephan Rose
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD (was: Any decent free...) Reply with quote

On 18 Jul 2006 17:04:28 -0400, DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> wrote:

Quote:

Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.diespammer.net> writes:
Matter of fact, I would be happy to even support other packages
libraries as long as I can get the appropriate documentation of
their file formats to be able to at the very least import them.

gEDA and PCB use open and fully-documented library formats, so no
problem there.

I figured they would so I will definitely be looking into those and
adding support for that.

Quote:

Heck, you could just use the same formats and save yourself some
effort.

Well not really, one is due to potential legal implications. Secondly,
using someone elses format limits me to what their format is capable
of storing. If I ever implement features that require me to store data
their format cannot handle, I have a problem. Sure I can extend the
format but at this point in time, it is no longer the same and no
longer compatible with the other app.

Plus my format is already defined anyway and is working very nicely!
The format is also designed in such a way that it is usable for
symbols, schematics, patterns, and pcb's (just the stored data
elements change accordingly) to avoid needing multiple file formats
for the various different files.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi
nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
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Stephan Rose
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD (was: Any decent free...) Reply with quote

Quote:

The symbol libraries and pattern libraries do worry me though. I want
to provide good and accurate libraries but for me to create them by
hand is unfeasible. I have time, but I don't have that much time. I
mean something basic with some basic patterns and components, sure no
problem. But there is no way I could cover even all the standard
components, exotics included, of all the standard manufacturers.

err..I meant to say exotics excluded =)

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi
nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
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JeffM
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 1007

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD (was: Any decent free...) Reply with quote

Quote:
I just simply don't work for free. I have a car payment, rent to pay, etc.
And I would much rather make my living off my own product
Stephan Rose

So we're wasting our time on another SPAMMER
who ignored the OP's Subject line.
..
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Stephan Rose
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD (was: Any decent free...) Reply with quote

On 18 Jul 2006 14:51:50 -0700, "JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote:

Quote:
I just simply don't work for free. I have a car payment, rent to pay, etc.
And I would much rather make my living off my own product
Stephan Rose

So we're wasting our time on another SPAMMER
who ignored the OP's Subject line.
.

I did not ignore the OP's subject line. I offered him to use what I am
developing for free, which agrees with his subject line does it not?

Nor am I offering anything for sale or am selling anything. Yes the
product will be commercial at one point in time, but at this point in
time I am discussing the development of said product and am trying to
get feedback on features and get suggestions from people as to things
they would like to see, not see, etc. This being a EDA CAD newsgroup,
and as such that I am discussing the development of an EDA CAD
program, I am in-line with this newsgroup. Wether or not it will
ultimately be free or not is irrelevant as long as I am not trying to
sell it on here. It is no different than me as a CAD user going to a
forum and discussing a problem I am having with a project I am working
on in said CAD software. Chances are in said example that said project
isn't free or open source either...

Got a question for you though, why is it that you expect me to do my
work for free? Seriously, why?

I assume you do schematics and layout and the like. So tell me, do you
design all your boards for free and distribute the source files along
with every product you ship out? If you don't, why do you expect me
to? How is my job any different than yours?

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi
nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
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Chuck Harris
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD Reply with quote

Stephan Rose wrote:
Quote:
On 18 Jul 2006 14:51:50 -0700, "JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote:

I just simply don't work for free. I have a car payment, rent to pay, etc.
And I would much rather make my living off my own product
Stephan Rose
So we're wasting our time on another SPAMMER
who ignored the OP's Subject line.
.

I did not ignore the OP's subject line. I offered him to use what I am
developing for free, which agrees with his subject line does it not?

Nor am I offering anything for sale or am selling anything. Yes the
product will be commercial at one point in time, but at this point in
time I am discussing the development of said product and am trying to
get feedback on features and get suggestions from people as to things
they would like to see, not see, etc. This being a EDA CAD newsgroup,
and as such that I am discussing the development of an EDA CAD
program, I am in-line with this newsgroup. Wether or not it will
ultimately be free or not is irrelevant as long as I am not trying to
sell it on here.

The fundamental difference is you are developing a product for sale, and
asking all of us "potential customers" to do your testing and quality control
for free. After we have invested our time and great effort in helping you
develop your product, you plan to then do us the great favor of letting
us pay for a seat.

Yeah...Right!

If you want to keep your product closed, that is fine. Keep it closed,
but pay for your own development... pay for the advice you seek.

It is no different than me as a CAD user going to a
Quote:
forum and discussing a problem I am having with a project I am working
on in said CAD software. Chances are in said example that said project
isn't free or open source either...

Got a question for you though, why is it that you expect me to do my
work for free? Seriously, why?

The question is turned right back on you fella: Why do you expect us to
be test pilots for your software for free? 80% of any software project
is spent testing and fixing bugs.

Quote:
I assume you do schematics and layout and the like. So tell me, do you
design all your boards for free and distribute the source files along
with every product you ship out? If you don't, why do you expect me
to? How is my job any different than yours?

With my schematics and layout, my customer has come to me and contracted
for me to do the design and layout. When I finish the work, it belongs
to my customer, so I turn over all of the materials to my customer. In
return, my customer gives me little green pieces of paper.

-Chuck Harris
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JeffM
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 1007

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD (was: Any decent free...) Reply with quote

Quote:
I did not ignore the OP's subject line.
I offered him to use what I am developing for free
Stephan Rose

:I did not ignore the OP's subject line.
:I offered him [the] use [for free of] what I am developing

Note that I have redacted your text
in an order that communicates what I think you meant.
Perhaps this is all about a language barrier.
My interpretation of what you initially said
was that the package you are developing would be free to all.

Quote:
Got a question for you though,
why is it that you expect me to do my work for free?

It is done all the time.

DJ Delorie, who contributed to this thread,
does exactly that on an open source project called "PCB"
(and, by extension, on "gEDA").

Quote:
Seriously, why?

People do things for all sorts of reasons.

Perhaps DJ will enlighten you here with his motivations.

All I'm looking for from you is candor. A statement like
**I can offer you a freeware beta of my payware project**
would have been apt.
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Stephan Rose
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD Reply with quote

Quote:
The fundamental difference is you are developing a product for sale, and
asking all of us "potential customers" to do your testing and quality control
for free. After we have invested our time and great effort in helping you
develop your product, you plan to then do us the great favor of letting
us pay for a seat.

Yeah...Right!

Actually Yeah...Wrong! I would have no problem issuing a free license
to those who contributed enough to deserve this. I think we can easily
agree that I couldn't just do this with everyone who just downloads
the app and plays with it for 5 mins and then posts a comment. But
those individuals who do really help out...I would be more than happy
to.

Quote:

If you want to keep your product closed, that is fine. Keep it closed,
but pay for your own development... pay for the advice you seek.

It's funny, I see so many users in various forums always complaining
on how developers don't listen to the end-users and so on. But when a
developer actually tries to include the end-users in the development
stage and *is* listening...that apparently isn't right either!

Quote:

It is no different than me as a CAD user going to a
forum and discussing a problem I am having with a project I am working
on in said CAD software. Chances are in said example that said project
isn't free or open source either...

Got a question for you though, why is it that you expect me to do my
work for free? Seriously, why?

The question is turned right back on you fella: Why do you expect us to
be test pilots for your software for free? 80% of any software project
is spent testing and fixing bugs.

And 80% is optimistic, I know that all too well.

I don't expect anything of anyone. I simply figured there might be
people out there that may have interest in voicing their thoughts,
suggestions and opinions during the development stage where such
things are much easier considered than after the fact. If you wish to
do so or not is entirely up to you. As far as free is concerned, see
above.

Quote:

I assume you do schematics and layout and the like. So tell me, do you
design all your boards for free and distribute the source files along
with every product you ship out? If you don't, why do you expect me
to? How is my job any different than yours?

With my schematics and layout, my customer has come to me and contracted
for me to do the design and layout. When I finish the work, it belongs
to my customer, so I turn over all of the materials to my customer. In
return, my customer gives me little green pieces of paper.

And that's perfectly fine. But you only do this in exchange for those
green little peices of paper right?
--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi
nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
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Stephan Rose
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD (was: Any decent free...) Reply with quote

On 18 Jul 2006 15:59:55 -0700, "JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> wrote:

Quote:
I did not ignore the OP's subject line.
I offered him to use what I am developing for free
Stephan Rose

:I did not ignore the OP's subject line.
:I offered him [the] use [for free of] what I am developing

Note that I have redacted your text
in an order that communicates what I think you meant.

True, probably the more correct way of wording it.

Quote:
Perhaps this is all about a language barrier.

While not my native language I do think that my English is more than
sufficient where that really should not pose a problem. I am not an
English professor though! =)

Quote:
My interpretation of what you initially said
was that the package you are developing would be free to all.

You probably missed the first post I made a couple weeks ago which
includes links to a beta version which clearly states that what I am
working on is not freeware or open source.

Quote:

Got a question for you though,
why is it that you expect me to do my work for free?

It is done all the time.
DJ Delorie, who contributed to this thread,
does exactly that on an open source project called "PCB"
(and, by extension, on "gEDA").

Seriously, why?

People do things for all sorts of reasons.
Perhaps DJ will enlighten you here with his motivations.

Oh I realize that it is done all the time. And hey, more power to
those who can do it. However, I personally can't.

Quote:

All I'm looking for from you is candor. A statement like
**I can offer you a freeware beta of my payware project**
would have been apt.

Which is precisely what I offered. I stated that my application is a
beta and that he is more than welcome to use it.
--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi
nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
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DJ Delorie
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD (was: Any decent free...) Reply with quote

"JeffM" <jeffm_@email.com> writes:
Quote:
Perhaps DJ will enlighten you here with his motivations.

I need it to do what I need it to do, the easiest way to make it do
that is to change it myself. Sorry, completely selfish. I can get
the best bang for the buck if I start with something that mostly does
what I want, and make the changes I need. Feeding the changes back to
the public just makes it easier to maintain them - no need to maintain
a separate set of patches for my own copy.

The prime motivation was to build this: http://www.delorie.com/house/furnace/

I'm working on a microcontroller-based version next, to get rid of the
beige PC on the floor.
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DJ Delorie
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 183

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD (was: Any decent free...) Reply with quote

Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.diespammer.net> writes:
Quote:
Got a question for you though, why is it that you expect me to do my
work for free? Seriously, why?

For comparison, I work for Red Hat Inc. ALL our software is free (as
in freedom) and can usually be downloaded for free (as in beer). Why
do we do it? Because people pay us to make it do what they want, and
they pay us for support.

Free software doesn't have to be charity work.
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Stephan Rose
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD (was: Any decent free...) Reply with quote

On 18 Jul 2006 19:43:26 -0400, DJ Delorie <dj@delorie.com> wrote:

Quote:

Stephan Rose <kermos@somrek.diespammer.net> writes:
Got a question for you though, why is it that you expect me to do my
work for free? Seriously, why?

For comparison, I work for Red Hat Inc. ALL our software is free (as
in freedom) and can usually be downloaded for free (as in beer). Why
do we do it? Because people pay us to make it do what they want, and
they pay us for support.

Free software doesn't have to be charity work.

Yea but you might also have a market where something like that is more
applicable and possible to do.

If I release my app for free nobody is going to pay me to add a
feature to it they want. Nor is anyone going to pay me to support them
and tell them how to draw a line...

And if they need design support, well that falls outside my expertise
and outside the spectrum of my knowledge.

I just don't see such a model working for an application such as this.
I may actually though release a free-version of the app with some
limitations over the commercial version. Fully-featured, just limited
in board size and component count to cater to students and the guy at
home who cannot justify buying a commercial EDA package for his hobby
project. This is still very much in the open though and I haven't made
a final decision either way yet. I still need to work out the details.

--
Stephan
2003 Yamaha R6

kimi no koto omoidasu hi
nante nai no wa
kimi no koto wasureta toki ga nai kara
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Chuck Harris
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 326

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: Developer's libriaries for his ECAD Reply with quote

Stephan Rose wrote:

Quote:
Yeah...Right!

Actually Yeah...Wrong! I would have no problem issuing a free license
to those who contributed enough to deserve this. I think we can easily
agree that I couldn't just do this with everyone who just downloads
the app and plays with it for 5 mins and then posts a comment. But
those individuals who do really help out...I would be more than happy
to.

Yeah, I was in that kind of relationship with Orcad once, and guess what?
They were happy to sell my work, but for some reason, they never quite got
around to knocking anything off of the price for my maintenance agreement.

And when I needed for them to do something for me, all they could say was
sorry, no money in it for us.

....

Quote:
And 80% is optimistic, I know that all too well.

I don't expect anything of anyone. I simply figured there might be
people out there that may have interest in voicing their thoughts,
suggestions and opinions during the development stage where such
things are much easier considered than after the fact. If you wish to
do so or not is entirely up to you. As far as free is concerned, see
above.

I'd rather funnel my energies over to DJ and the gEDA group. That way,
I know I will always be able to gain the use of the fruits of my labor.
Your product may be the next blue ribbon CAD program, but I would be willing to
bet that as a commercial product, it won't even rate "also ran" status.
You are jumping into a market that is already full to the brim with schematic
capture products. Do a little market research. What niche do you think you
are going to fill?

Putting your efforts into the gEDA camp would make you a big fish in a
small pond... if that matters to you.

Quote:
I assume you do schematics and layout and the like. So tell me, do you
design all your boards for free and distribute the source files along
with every product you ship out? If you don't, why do you expect me
to? How is my job any different than yours?
With my schematics and layout, my customer has come to me and contracted
for me to do the design and layout. When I finish the work, it belongs
to my customer, so I turn over all of the materials to my customer. In
return, my customer gives me little green pieces of paper.

And that's perfectly fine. But you only do this in exchange for those
green little peices of paper right?

Actually, no. I have done numerous projects for which I have received no
compensation. Those, I make available to anyone who wants them. I published
my first freeware utility back in the early '90s.

My principal motivation for being an engineer is I like making things. I would
still be making things even if no one was willing to pay for them. The big
difference is that for pay, you may be able to convince me to make things that
interest you, instead of me only making things that interest me.

DJ and crew are doing their work on PCB and gEDA to scratch their own itches.
Some of their itches match mine.

-Chuck
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