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OT: Petrol consumption
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Eric Jacobsen
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 13 May 2005
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:44 pm    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 19:26:25 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 19:12:32 -0700, Eric Jacobsen
eric.jacobsen@ieee.org> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 16:33:23 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

[snip]

Looks like Eric and I are neighbors. That's the Intel division I
consulted for when I designed the USB modules.

Follow Chandler Blvd west for about 8 miles and you come to my abode.

...Jim Thompson

Ah, cool! I rarely get down to that end of town these days (work
from home), but perhaps we could grab a beer sometime. They don't
drink themselves, after all... ;)

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org

I work from home, also.

Where do you abode? Looks like McDowell Mountain Ranch? My youngest
son and family used to live on 106th Way, north of Thompson Peak.

...Jim Thompson

Yes, I'm in MMR.

I have friends in Ahwatukee and do occassionally (very occassionally)
get into the office in Chandler. We should keep in touch!

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org
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Jim Thompson
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 5440

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 07:44:03 -0700, Eric Jacobsen
<eric.jacobsen@ieee.org> wrote:

Quote:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 19:26:25 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 19:12:32 -0700, Eric Jacobsen
eric.jacobsen@ieee.org> wrote:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 16:33:23 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

[snip]

Looks like Eric and I are neighbors. That's the Intel division I
consulted for when I designed the USB modules.

Follow Chandler Blvd west for about 8 miles and you come to my abode.

...Jim Thompson

Ah, cool! I rarely get down to that end of town these days (work
from home), but perhaps we could grab a beer sometime. They don't
drink themselves, after all... ;)

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org

I work from home, also.

Where do you abode? Looks like McDowell Mountain Ranch? My youngest
son and family used to live on 106th Way, north of Thompson Peak.

...Jim Thompson

Yes, I'm in MMR.

I have friends in Ahwatukee and do occassionally (very occassionally)
get into the office in Chandler. We should keep in touch!

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.
My opinions may not be Intel's opinions.
http://www.ericjacobsen.org

Sure! Let me know when you'll be down this way.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
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Everett M. Greene
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 31 Oct 2005
Posts: 18

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:46 pm    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

Rich Grise <rich@example.net> writes:
Quote:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:08:24 +0000, Roger Hamlett wrote:

I think it has become slightly less noticeable on modern cars and with
modern lubricants and fuel injection, but on older models, there were
days when the engine just wanted to 'sing', and others when it felt like
half the cylinders were missing!. I'd put 90% of it down to the mixture
control on these engines though. Temperature is the big beast in regard
to overall engine 'output'. On light aircraft, you use a slightly 'safe'
factor of 10% loss in take-off performance for every 10C change in air
temperature...

I'd think with an airplane, lift would have a lot to do with it... Wink

You don't want to go there. There's indicated airspeed, calibrated
airspeed, true airspeed, and groundspeed. The pilot operates with
indicated airspeed which is directly related to lift. On a high
and/or hot day, a higher groundspeed is needed to produce the
needed takeoff indicated airspeed (with less power to do it).

High and hot is bad; low and cold is good.
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The Chimp
electronics forum addict


Joined: 15 May 2006
Posts: 60

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 02:42:25 +0100, Eeyore wrote:
Quote:
Bobo The Chimp wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:35:16 -0700, Eric Jacobsen wrote:

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.

Huh? You pray with them, in hopes that they might receive Divine Healing?

Well, why not? We've tried everything else! ;-P

Good Luck!
Rich^H^H^H^HBobo

What's ctrl-H on your box btw ?


Backspace. It's a joke thing: you say one thing, backspace over it, and
type its replacement, like "how you treat your
victims^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcustomers" and like that.

I use the Bobo name when I'm going for really goofy, off-the wall type
humour that'd be unseemly for the techie, but I want people to know
it's me behind that curtain, for some reason. Wink
--
Cheers!
Rich^H^H^H^HBoBo
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

Bobo The Chimp wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 02:42:25 +0100, Eeyore wrote:
Bobo The Chimp wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:35:16 -0700, Eric Jacobsen wrote:

Eric Jacobsen
Minister of Algorithms, Intel Corp.

Huh? You pray with them, in hopes that they might receive Divine Healing?

Well, why not? We've tried everything else! ;-P

Good Luck!
Rich^H^H^H^HBobo

What's ctrl-H on your box btw ?


Backspace. It's a joke thing: you say one thing, backspace over it, and
type its replacement, like "how you treat your
victims^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcustomers" and like that.

I use the Bobo name when I'm going for really goofy, off-the wall type
humour that'd be unseemly for the techie, but I want people to know
it's me behind that curtain, for some reason. Wink
--
Cheers!
Rich^H^H^H^HBoBo

LOL !

Ok - got it. :~)

Graham
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:01 pm    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

"Everett M. Greene" wrote:

Quote:
Rich Grise <rich@example.net> writes:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:08:24 +0000, Roger Hamlett wrote:

I'd think with an airplane, lift would have a lot to do with it... ;-)

You don't want to go there. There's indicated airspeed, calibrated
airspeed, true airspeed, and groundspeed.

Ah yes. I recall on one trip to India the groundspeed was 630 mph ! Not bad.

Graham
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Richard Owlett
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

Rich Grise wrote:
Quote:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 16:49:53 -0500, Richard Owlett wrote:

Eric Jacobsen wrote:


Ya gotta give people _some_ credit for having brain cells.

*WHY*

Have you EVER directed traffic at a fire or accident scene?

I have!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was a Fire Police Officer in Ithaca New York Fire Department

Do you understand that otherwise intelligent people have problems
understanding that a 100 ft ladder parked crosswise of their intended
route presents a problem?

And I have even better stories.


Well, heaven's snakes alive, don't keep us in suspenders! ;-)

Please, do tell!

Thanks!
Rich



My favorite traffic story occurred late one February evening on a two
lane road which no longer had shoulders due to snow drifts. One lane got
used for parking volunteers and other for alternating traffic.

Over Fire Police CB: *STOP THAT CAR* Stop that car. She almost ran me over.

Fire Chief was standing in the "right place" and flags her down and asks
for "license and registration" etc.

I witnessed the following conversation ;)

Chief: Why didn't you stop for officer at bottom of the hill?
Lady: I was confused by all the flashing lights.
Chief: Did you think of slowing down?
Lady: No.

At this point I wish I had had a video camera.
The various expressions that wandered across her face as:
she realized what she had just said.
she realized it was a perfectly accurate description.

Chief let her go with polite caution to remember in future what she had
just said.

In realm of general fire related lack of functioning neurons stories,
there is tie for first place.

_Guy Tries to Impress Girl_

Scene: Old three story former one family residence that been converted
into TOO many "apartments". [as in any "college town"]

Act 1: Guy invites girl for candle lit dinner.
Act 2: He cooks dinner and sets table with mundane lighting on.
Act 3: the dinner
candelabra lit and mundane lights extinguished
room still too bright to be "romantic"
what to do? what to do?
move candelabra into adjoining closet
OOOPPPPSSS contents of closet ignite
*WHAT TO DO?* *WHAT TO DO?*
leave without telling anyone building is on fire
offstage - fire discovered and alarm given
Epilogue: He and she have "conversation" with appropriate deans as this
was in age of "in loco parentis" and she had neglected to sign
out of dorm.



_Girls Try to Impress Guys_
[I'll bow to ERA ;]

Scene: Old three story former one family residence that been converted
into many "apartments". Cornell required that any "apartment
house"/"rooming house" wishing to be listed with university have
a pressurized clear water fire extinguisher on each floor. There
may have also been a local ordinance of same intent.
Plot:

Girls invite guys to dinner which will feature vegetables flash cooked
in hot oil.

Large amount of oil placed in large kettle and brought to heat.

Veggies added to pot. Lots of splatter. Pot of oil ignites.
Johnny to Rescue grabs required extinguisher.
Reads instructions -- as is Ivy League student he is able.
"Aims at base of flames" --- ignites kitchen curtains.
decides to call Fire Department
Asst. Fire Chief is first on scene
-- sees kettle's cover on drainboard
-- places on kettle
-- walks out without saying a word.


You *DID* ask

BEWARE I've more stories -- some even include evidence of own lack of
functioning neurons -- doubt I'll post those
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Richard Owlett
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 25 Apr 2005
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:46 pm    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

Everett M. Greene wrote:

Quote:
Rich Grise <rich@example.net> writes:

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 13:08:24 +0000, Roger Hamlett wrote:


I think it has become slightly less noticeable on modern cars and with
modern lubricants and fuel injection, but on older models, there were
days when the engine just wanted to 'sing', and others when it felt like
half the cylinders were missing!. I'd put 90% of it down to the mixture
control on these engines though. Temperature is the big beast in regard
to overall engine 'output'. On light aircraft, you use a slightly 'safe'
factor of 10% loss in take-off performance for every 10C change in air
temperature...

I'd think with an airplane, lift would have a lot to do with it... ;-)


You don't want to go there. There's indicated airspeed, calibrated
airspeed, true airspeed, and groundspeed. The pilot operates with
indicated airspeed which is directly related to lift. On a high
and/or hot day, a higher groundspeed is needed to produce the
needed takeoff indicated airspeed (with less power to do it).

High and hot is bad; low and cold is good.

And then there is student pilot who "leans mixture" instead of "adding
carburetor heat" when landing with owner of school as his instructor. I
understand they are adjacent in a Piper Cub. ex-Student is reported to
have lived Wink
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Nico Coesel
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Posts: 192

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:

Have you ever noticed that the engine is distinctly more sprightly under some
weather conditions tooo ?

Yes, but also the fuel quality counts. I once bought the more
expensive fuel (diesel) from a branded petrol station and noticed my
car drove better. After keeping track of the km/l figure it turned out
the expensive fuel was actually 3% cheaper to use.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl
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Jerry Avins
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 127

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

Nico Coesel wrote:
Quote:
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:

Have you ever noticed that the engine is distinctly more sprightly under some
weather conditions tooo ?

Yes, but also the fuel quality counts. I once bought the more
expensive fuel (diesel) from a branded petrol station and noticed my
car drove better. After keeping track of the km/l figure it turned out
the expensive fuel was actually 3% cheaper to use.

That is more likely for Diesel than for gasoline. With gasolir, the
higher the octane rating, the lower the energy per gallon. The extra
efficiency made possible by higher compression ratios (o to some extent
advanced timing) more than makes up for the difference.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ
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glen herrmannsfeldt
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:04 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

Richard Henry wrote:
(snip)

Quote:
Last night I drove my wife to the LA airport (about 2 hours). We took
her new car, which as an mpg readout in the instrument panel. On the
way up, with the AC on, we were running about 26-28 mpg. Returning
after dark, with the AC off, we wer getting 31-33 mpg. We were going
65-75 mph both ways, depending on traffic, and hills were trivial
either way (Route 91 from Corona to LAX and return).

And the windows were closed both ways?

Try windows open and AC off at 65 mi/h.

There is also an effect on engine efficiency due to incoming
air temperature. It should be smaller than the difference you note.

-- glen
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glen herrmannsfeldt
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

Richard Henry wrote:

(snip)

Quote:
Some old military aircraft engines injected water to make the engines
run better.

There was an article, I believe in Popular Science some years
ago on running car engines on hydrogen. They put water through
the carburetor. (That was in the days before fuel injection was
popular.)

With all the talk about a hydrogen economy and fuel cells I haven't
heard anything lately about hydrogen in internal combustion engines.

-- glen
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glen herrmannsfeldt
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

John Popelish wrote:

Quote:
glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:

Now consider the cost in energy to build a car multiplied by the
increased probability of totaling the car in an accident when
the lights are off.

What are your probability numbers on how much chance of an accident in
daylight, with lights on and off? I really doubt anyone has ever done a
controlled statistical experiment. I think having lights on in daylight
just gives insurance companies worm fuzzies, the same way street
lighting does. Both waste power and do little that is actually useful.

I usually keep the lights on during the day when I am on two lane roads,
especially winding ones, but otherwise off.

There was a road I used to drive on (I believe it is 152 between 101 and
Interstate 5 in the central valley of California) which has a section
called "daylight test section" where you are supposed to keep your
lights on. I don't know that anyone is actually doing the statistics,
but that would seem to be the suggestion.

-- glen
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Paul E. Schoen
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 01 Jul 2005
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: OT: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

"Chris Jones" <lugnut808@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:12btcq7i12neje1@corp.supernews.com...
Quote:
Paul E. Schoen wrote:
[snip]

There may be a slight regen effect when going downhill, adding to the
compression braking effect, and the maximum charge current is somewhere
between 30 and 70 amps (about 1 HP). It might be possible to tweak the
charger circuit to engage only when the brake pedal is touched (or when
the battery drops below about 80% charge).
[snip]
Paul

That's an idea I've been thinking about recently, i.e. tweak the
reference
voltage of the battery charger slightly up when the brake pedal is
pressed
or when the foot is off the accelerator and the revs are over 2000, and
slightly down when the accelerator is pressed hard. I wonder if anyone
is
doing it in production cars. It may well be patented but if not, you've
done us all a favour by disclosing it. It could save a worthwhile amount
of fuel and also some brake pads when you consider how many cars there
are,
and how easy it would be to implement.

Chris


I doubt it would be really worthwhile, especially for larger vehicles which
are *really* the problem. 1/4 to 1 HP is minuscule. Good driving habits,
possibly augmented by realtime fuel economy gauges, would probably save
much more. Convincing most people to buy a second highly economical vehicle
and use it for most transportation needs would save the most.

As pointed out elsewhere, many other engine systems use a lot of power. If
most of those could be powered by a more efficient electric motor, it would
probably reduce the engine load by several HP. The alternator could be
"supersized" and probably a separate battery would be needed. I think this
approach might be able to boost fuel economy by 10-20%, especially for
vehicles with power steering and air conditioning. Both units could
probably be modified to run off of an electric motor / generator with the
same type belts and pulleys.

An even more efficient method would be to couple the motor/generator to the
driveshaft, so that the fuel motor could actually be mechanically decoupled
from the drivetrain and turned off during long downhill stretches. This
would be easier to do with a rear wheel drive vehicle. Even better might be
a four wheel drive vehicle where the rear drive could be made independent
from the front, and the motor/generator could be used for moderate
propulsion as well as regeneration. Another way to implement a hybrid
conversion.

Paul
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Ian
electronics forum addict


Joined: 01 May 2005
Posts: 81

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Petrol consumption Reply with quote

"glen herrmannsfeldt" <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote in message
news:8IidnRAP-OSr6V3ZnZ2dnUVZ_qCdnZ2d@comcast.com...
Quote:
John Popelish wrote:

glen herrmannsfeldt wrote:

Now consider the cost in energy to build a car multiplied by the
increased probability of totaling the car in an accident when
the lights are off.

What are your probability numbers on how much chance of an accident in
daylight, with lights on and off? I really doubt anyone has ever done a
controlled statistical experiment. I think having lights on in daylight
just gives insurance companies worm fuzzies, the same way street lighting
does. Both waste power and do little that is actually useful.

I usually keep the lights on during the day when I am on two lane roads,
especially winding ones, but otherwise off.

There was a road I used to drive on (I believe it is 152 between 101 and
Interstate 5 in the central valley of California) which has a section
called "daylight test section" where you are supposed to keep your lights
on. I don't know that anyone is actually doing the statistics, but that
would seem to be the suggestion.

AIUI Volvo did the original statistics on accidents in Sweden.


Regards
Ian
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