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How To Ground a Space Vehicle?
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:54 am    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

onurco wrote:

Quote:
I have been thinking a while that how to ground a satellite or shuttle
at the vacuum environment. Can someone explain this? Extra resources
will be grateful thanks a lot.

You're an idiot. A Google idiot with an idiot gmail address. Go get lost.

Graham
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gfretwell@aol.com
electronics forum addict


Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:06 am    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

On 19 Jul 2006 22:43:02 -0700, "onurco" <onurco@gmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
I have been thinking a while that how to ground a satellite or shuttle
at the vacuum environment. Can someone explain this? Extra resources
will be grateful thanks a lot.

This is the classic difference between grounding and bonding. If you
have an equipotential bonding grid you don't care if you are grounded.
Think of the bird on the power line.
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onurco
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 18 Feb 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:45 am    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

gfretwell@aol.com yazdi:
Quote:
On 19 Jul 2006 22:43:02 -0700, "onurco" <onurco@gmail.com> wrote:

I have been thinking a while that how to ground a satellite or shuttle
at the vacuum environment. Can someone explain this? Extra resources
will be grateful thanks a lot.

This is the classic difference between grounding and bonding. If you
have an equipotential bonding grid you don't care if you are grounded.
Think of the bird on the power line.


Ok this is reasonable i thought the same but how can you keep the same
potential at the grid because there is a input for ex. sollar array.
and also how about electronic discharge.
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Meindert Sprang
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 150

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

"onurco" <onurco@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1153381531.492319.223750@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Quote:

gfretwell@aol.com yazdi:
On 19 Jul 2006 22:43:02 -0700, "onurco" <onurco@gmail.com> wrote:

I have been thinking a while that how to ground a satellite or shuttle
at the vacuum environment. Can someone explain this? Extra resources
will be grateful thanks a lot.

This is the classic difference between grounding and bonding. If you
have an equipotential bonding grid you don't care if you are grounded.
Think of the bird on the power line.


Ok this is reasonable i thought the same but how can you keep the same
potential at the grid because there is a input for ex. sollar array.
and also how about electronic discharge.

When the space vehicle is a Faraday cage, you don't need ground to keep
discharges out. Inside, everything is ground.

Meindert
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gfretwell@aol.com
electronics forum addict


Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:42:10 +0200, "Meindert Sprang"
<ms@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl> wrote:

Quote:
Ok this is reasonable i thought the same but how can you keep the same
potential at the grid because there is a input for ex. sollar array.
and also how about electronic discharge.

When the space vehicle is a Faraday cage, you don't need ground to keep
discharges out. Inside, everything is ground.

Meindert

In a previous occupation I did a lot of work in lightning mitigation
on computer networks in Florida. The first thing we figured out is
there is no such thing as "ground". You can have a very extensive
grounding electrode system and 100 meters away another installation
with the same type electrode system might be fluxuating by dozens of
volts in a storm.
That brings you back to bonding. As long as everything is referenced
to a single bonding plane with a fat copper wire, those transients
bring you up and then back down. You don't care whether you are zero
volts or 1000 volts referenced to some hypothetical "ground". In the
case of your space craft you really only care about transients
generated on board and Mr Kirchoff says they will all reconcile
themselves on board. You just need to assure it happens over your
desired path. Whether you are a million volts above "ground" on some
distant planet is inconsequential.. An example, closer to earth, would
be a helicopter. They could be hundreds or thousands of volts "above
ground" cruising through the air but you don't know it until you drop
a steel cable to someone on the surface. They will get the snot
knocked out of them if they don't bond it first.
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Al
electronics forum addict


Joined: 12 Sep 2005
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

In article <e4fvb2ddrodp1hij3stujve3m4fiu7c01i@4ax.com>,
gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:42:10 +0200, "Meindert Sprang"
ms@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl> wrote:

Ok this is reasonable i thought the same but how can you keep the same
potential at the grid because there is a input for ex. sollar array.
and also how about electronic discharge.

When the space vehicle is a Faraday cage, you don't need ground to keep
discharges out. Inside, everything is ground.

Meindert

In a previous occupation I did a lot of work in lightning mitigation
on computer networks in Florida. The first thing we figured out is
there is no such thing as "ground". You can have a very extensive
grounding electrode system and 100 meters away another installation
with the same type electrode system might be fluxuating by dozens of
volts in a storm.
That brings you back to bonding. As long as everything is referenced
to a single bonding plane with a fat copper wire, those transients
bring you up and then back down. You don't care whether you are zero
volts or 1000 volts referenced to some hypothetical "ground". In the
case of your space craft you really only care about transients
generated on board and Mr Kirchoff says they will all reconcile
themselves on board. You just need to assure it happens over your
desired path. Whether you are a million volts above "ground" on some
distant planet is inconsequential.. An example, closer to earth, would
be a helicopter. They could be hundreds or thousands of volts "above
ground" cruising through the air but you don't know it until you drop
a steel cable to someone on the surface. They will get the snot
knocked out of them if they don't bond it first.

And it's most important that your grounding scheme be in he form of a
tree. If you have any loops in your grounds, watch out!

Al
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Michael A. Terrell
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 2291

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
Quote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:42:10 +0200, "Meindert Sprang"
ms@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl> wrote:

Ok this is reasonable i thought the same but how can you keep the same
potential at the grid because there is a input for ex. sollar array.
and also how about electronic discharge.

When the space vehicle is a Faraday cage, you don't need ground to keep
discharges out. Inside, everything is ground.

Meindert

In a previous occupation I did a lot of work in lightning mitigation
on computer networks in Florida. The first thing we figured out is
there is no such thing as "ground". You can have a very extensive
grounding electrode system and 100 meters away another installation
with the same type electrode system might be fluxuating by dozens of
volts in a storm.
That brings you back to bonding. As long as everything is referenced
to a single bonding plane with a fat copper wire, those transients
bring you up and then back down. You don't care whether you are zero
volts or 1000 volts referenced to some hypothetical "ground". In the
case of your space craft you really only care about transients
generated on board and Mr Kirchoff says they will all reconcile
themselves on board. You just need to assure it happens over your
desired path. Whether you are a million volts above "ground" on some
distant planet is inconsequential.. An example, closer to earth, would
be a helicopter. They could be hundreds or thousands of volts "above
ground" cruising through the air but you don't know it until you drop
a steel cable to someone on the surface. They will get the snot
knocked out of them if they don't bond it first.


Could you drop that cable on Phil? Please?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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Charlie Edmondson
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 251

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Quote:
gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:42:10 +0200, "Meindert Sprang"
ms@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl> wrote:


Ok this is reasonable i thought the same but how can you keep the same
potential at the grid because there is a input for ex. sollar array.
and also how about electronic discharge.

When the space vehicle is a Faraday cage, you don't need ground to keep
discharges out. Inside, everything is ground.

Meindert

In a previous occupation I did a lot of work in lightning mitigation
on computer networks in Florida. The first thing we figured out is
there is no such thing as "ground". You can have a very extensive
grounding electrode system and 100 meters away another installation
with the same type electrode system might be fluxuating by dozens of
volts in a storm.
That brings you back to bonding. As long as everything is referenced
to a single bonding plane with a fat copper wire, those transients
bring you up and then back down. You don't care whether you are zero
volts or 1000 volts referenced to some hypothetical "ground". In the
case of your space craft you really only care about transients
generated on board and Mr Kirchoff says they will all reconcile
themselves on board. You just need to assure it happens over your
desired path. Whether you are a million volts above "ground" on some
distant planet is inconsequential.. An example, closer to earth, would
be a helicopter. They could be hundreds or thousands of volts "above
ground" cruising through the air but you don't know it until you drop
a steel cable to someone on the surface. They will get the snot
knocked out of them if they don't bond it first.



Could you drop that cable on Phil? Please?



Biggest problem I have heard about grounding problems have been to
possibility of attacting a 'cloud' of ionized particles of one polarity
or another. This is usually solved by outgassing a neutral stream of
both polarities to compensate...

Charlie
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John O'Flaherty
electronics forum addict


Joined: 08 Mar 2005
Posts: 68

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

onurco wrote:
Quote:
I have been thinking a while that how to ground a satellite or shuttle
at the vacuum environment. Can someone explain this? Extra resources
will be grateful thanks a lot.

The Earth itself is suspended in vacuum and isn't grounded to anything.
Just pretend the satellite is its own planet. However, now that you
brought up the question, I wonder if they get sparks when the shuttle
touches the space station.
--
john
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martin griffith
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 1098

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

On 20 Jul 2006 15:43:40 -0700, in sci.electronics.design "John
O'Flaherty" <quiasmox@yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:

onurco wrote:
I have been thinking a while that how to ground a satellite or shuttle
at the vacuum environment. Can someone explain this? Extra resources
will be grateful thanks a lot.

The Earth itself is suspended in vacuum and isn't grounded to anything.
Just pretend the satellite is its own planet. However, now that you
brought up the question, I wonder if they get sparks when the shuttle
touches the space station.

well, it's all relative, where would the current go when they bonk
each other?


martin
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Rich Grise
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 3971

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:29 pm    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:37:29 -0400, gfretwell wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:42:10 +0200, "Meindert Sprang"
ms@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl> wrote:

Ok this is reasonable i thought the same but how can you keep the same
potential at the grid because there is a input for ex. sollar array.
and also how about electronic discharge.

When the space vehicle is a Faraday cage, you don't need ground to keep
discharges out. Inside, everything is ground.

Meindert

In a previous occupation I did a lot of work in lightning mitigation
on computer networks in Florida. The first thing we figured out is
there is no such thing as "ground". You can have a very extensive
grounding electrode system and 100 meters away another installation
with the same type electrode system might be fluxuating by dozens of
volts in a storm.
That brings you back to bonding. As long as everything is referenced
to a single bonding plane with a fat copper wire, those transients
bring you up and then back down. You don't care whether you are zero
volts or 1000 volts referenced to some hypothetical "ground". In the
case of your space craft you really only care about transients
generated on board and Mr Kirchoff says they will all reconcile
themselves on board. You just need to assure it happens over your
desired path. Whether you are a million volts above "ground" on some
distant planet is inconsequential.. An example, closer to earth, would
be a helicopter. They could be hundreds or thousands of volts "above
ground" cruising through the air but you don't know it until you drop
a steel cable to someone on the surface. They will get the snot
knocked out of them if they don't bond it first.

How do they moor a blimp? Use an insulating rope?

Thanks,
Rich
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Rich Grise
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 3971

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 22:43:02 -0700, onurco wrote:

Quote:
I have been thinking a while that how to ground a satellite or shuttle
at the vacuum environment. Can someone explain this? Extra resources
will be grateful thanks a lot.

They always have a box of dirt down in the cargo hold.

Cheers!
Rich
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Stanislaw Flatto
electronics forum addict


Joined: 10 Sep 2005
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:08 am    Post subject: [OT]Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

onurco wrote:
Quote:
I have been thinking a while that how to ground a satellite or shuttle
at the vacuum environment. Can someone explain this? Extra resources
will be grateful thanks a lot.


The same "scienific" way I have seen when in my teens.
You borrow from your grandma a flower pot and stick in it a 1/2 mm.sq
copper wire connected to the grounding screw.
Important, remember to water it twice weekly!

Have fun

Stanislaw
Slack user from Ulladulla.
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:10 am    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote:

Quote:
Rich Grise wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:37:29 -0400, gfretwell wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:42:10 +0200, "Meindert Sprang"
ms@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl> wrote:

Ok this is reasonable i thought the same but how can you keep the same
potential at the grid because there is a input for ex. sollar array.
and also how about electronic discharge.

When the space vehicle is a Faraday cage, you don't need ground to keep
discharges out. Inside, everything is ground.

Meindert

In a previous occupation I did a lot of work in lightning mitigation
on computer networks in Florida. The first thing we figured out is
there is no such thing as "ground". You can have a very extensive
grounding electrode system and 100 meters away another installation
with the same type electrode system might be fluxuating by dozens of
volts in a storm.
That brings you back to bonding. As long as everything is referenced
to a single bonding plane with a fat copper wire, those transients
bring you up and then back down. You don't care whether you are zero
volts or 1000 volts referenced to some hypothetical "ground". In the
case of your space craft you really only care about transients
generated on board and Mr Kirchoff says they will all reconcile
themselves on board. You just need to assure it happens over your
desired path. Whether you are a million volts above "ground" on some
distant planet is inconsequential.. An example, closer to earth, would
be a helicopter. They could be hundreds or thousands of volts "above
ground" cruising through the air but you don't know it until you drop
a steel cable to someone on the surface. They will get the snot
knocked out of them if they don't bond it first.

How do they moor a blimp? Use an insulating rope?

They drop a ground cable first. They do the same for an airplane (well,
not 'drop' but connect one to the airport grounding system).

Don't forget to ground the fuel truck either !

Graham
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Paul Hovnanian P.E.
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 583

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:11 am    Post subject: Re: How To Ground a Space Vehicle? Reply with quote

Rich Grise wrote:
Quote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 13:37:29 -0400, gfretwell wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:42:10 +0200, "Meindert Sprang"
ms@NOJUNKcustomORSPAMware.nl> wrote:

Ok this is reasonable i thought the same but how can you keep the same
potential at the grid because there is a input for ex. sollar array.
and also how about electronic discharge.

When the space vehicle is a Faraday cage, you don't need ground to keep
discharges out. Inside, everything is ground.

Meindert

In a previous occupation I did a lot of work in lightning mitigation
on computer networks in Florida. The first thing we figured out is
there is no such thing as "ground". You can have a very extensive
grounding electrode system and 100 meters away another installation
with the same type electrode system might be fluxuating by dozens of
volts in a storm.
That brings you back to bonding. As long as everything is referenced
to a single bonding plane with a fat copper wire, those transients
bring you up and then back down. You don't care whether you are zero
volts or 1000 volts referenced to some hypothetical "ground". In the
case of your space craft you really only care about transients
generated on board and Mr Kirchoff says they will all reconcile
themselves on board. You just need to assure it happens over your
desired path. Whether you are a million volts above "ground" on some
distant planet is inconsequential.. An example, closer to earth, would
be a helicopter. They could be hundreds or thousands of volts "above
ground" cruising through the air but you don't know it until you drop
a steel cable to someone on the surface. They will get the snot
knocked out of them if they don't bond it first.

How do they moor a blimp? Use an insulating rope?

They drop a ground cable first. They do the same for an airplane (well,
not 'drop' but connect one to the airport grounding system).

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Error: Keyboard not attached. Press F1 to continue.
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