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Blue sky thinking
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John Larkin
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 4320

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 21:44:15 -0400, gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 17:21:23 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Could you please elaborate? How does America need saving? It seems to
me that Europe is facing a demographic and employment brick-wall
across the road. The USA is doing fine

That's a guy who never really looked at the Social Security reports.
Our brick wall is just a few years farther down the road than the
Europeans. We have let our polititians write checks our kids can't
cash in the name of votes. Too bad the kids don't vote.

The Social Security thing can be fixed any number of ways, and it will
be. Increase retirement age, cut benefits to those with other income,
print some money and inflate the obligation out of existance. I have
two kids and (so far) two grand-kids to work and pay taxes, and the US
population is relatively young and growing.

John
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Paul Hovnanian P.E.
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 583

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:54 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

Jim Thompson wrote:
Quote:

[snip]


Quote:
I've got mine, too bad about yours Wink

I'm set pretty well. But that's not true of the average American. And ts
he average American that drives policy. If they get hungry and start
looking around, they might find our nest eggs.

Although the Clinton administration started it, the current gang is
rapidly plugging all the loopholes through which one might move wealth
into a shelter. The Patriot Act gives them a peek into the bank accounts
of any American and the unitary tax system allows them to reach anywhere
in the world to snatch it.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
IRS: We've got what it takes to take what you've got.
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Bill Sloman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 1080

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Quote:
bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

amdx wrote:
"PeteS" <PeterSmith1954@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1153421542.639400.283610@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

<snip>

Quote:
If you could just bring yourself to mind your own damn business you
might have time to find a job.

I don't have any trouble finding jobs. Getting the potential employers
to hire me is the hard bit.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
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Jim Thompson
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 06 May 2005
Posts: 5440

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:00 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 03:22:25 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:23:03 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:



Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:06:23 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On 20 Jul 2006 16:17:56 -0700, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

The American work ethic may be admirable enough, but if they took a
break every now and then, argues Paul Harris, they might learn a bit
about the rest of the world

Europeans actually get more of a break than he indicates. It's called
unemployment. 15% unemployment is, on average, the same as getting an
additional 8 weeks off every year.

Where on earth do you get 15% from ?

Graham

Geeez! I can understand your aggravation... it's only 11% ;-)

...Jim Thompson

It's not even that high in France for heaven's sake !

5% here. Less than the USA according to http://www.wi-countries.com/cy/2433

Graham

You really need to stop believing your own propaganda...

MONTH....LABOR FORCE....EMPLOYED....UNEMPLOYED..UNEMP RATE/SA RATE*

May 150,696,000 144,041,000 6,655,000 4.4% 4.6%

LAST 12 MONTH AVG...
150,134,083 142,842,417 7,291,667 4.9% 4.9%

* S.A. -- seasonally adjusted.

I just checked cia.gov.

UK 4.7%
US 5.1%

( both figures for 2005 )

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it !

Graham

Dumb-s**t... my figures are from May 2006... learn to read before you
jump, jerk ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
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John Larkin
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 4320

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:05 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:56:05 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:06:23 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:



John Larkin wrote:

On 20 Jul 2006 16:17:56 -0700, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

The American work ethic may be admirable enough, but if they took a
break every now and then, argues Paul Harris, they might learn a bit
about the rest of the world

Europeans actually get more of a break than he indicates. It's called
unemployment. 15% unemployment is, on average, the same as getting an
additional 8 weeks off every year.

Where on earth do you get 15% from ?

Graham

Geeez! I can understand your aggravation... it's only 11% ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Some Unemployment figures from http://www.wi-countries.com/

Latvia 8.7
Lithuania 10.5
Estonia 9.9
Finland 9.2
Sweden 4.8
Norway * 4.5
Poland 19.3
Germany 8.9
Denmark 5.5
Netherlands 3.7
Belgium 8.2
France 9.6
Spain 11.4
Portugal 6.4
Italy 8.9
Greece 9.3
Luxembourg 3.8
Liechtenstein * 1.3
Switzerland * 3.9
Austria 4.5
Hungary 5.9
Slovakia 17.6
Czech Republic 8.3
Slovenia 11.3
Malta 5.6
Cyprus 3.4
Eire / Ireland 4.8
UK 5

Monaco * 3.1
Croatia * 21.9
Romania * 15
Macedonia * 37
Montenegro * 40

Non EU *

You can see that the former Eastern Bloc and Yugoslavian countries are still
struggling to improve but of the EU countries only Poland and Slovakia come
anywhere near John's laughable 15% figure.

Weenie liberal Netherlands turns out to have one of the lowest rates of
unemployment too as does ultra-liberal Sweden !

It's interesting to google "actual official unemployment France" and
ditto Germany. Germany in particular plays a number of bookkeeping
tricks to keep the official rate down, like "retiring" people over 50
who can't find jobs. The unemployment rates among youth and immigrants
in France is ghastly.

On the other hand, the considerable grey economy in the former
Yugoslavia may make the actual rate lower than the official one.

John
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gfretwell@aol.com
electronics forum addict


Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:20 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:54:27 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<paul@hovnanian.com> wrote:

Quote:
Although the Clinton administration started it, the current gang is
rapidly plugging all the loopholes through which one might move wealth
into a shelter. The Patriot Act gives them a peek into the bank accounts
of any American and the unitary tax system allows them to reach anywhere
in the world to snatch it.
The IRS has always had the ability to peek into your bank accounts

When this was extended to the DEA any thoughts of hiding money were
gone ... unless you just bury it in the yard.

BTW I wouldn't be all that secure that you "have yours" unless it is
in gold, ammo or MREs. All that paper money is just a state of mind.
Inflation could eat up at forune in a few years
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:31 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

Jim Thompson wrote:

Quote:
On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 03:22:25 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:23:03 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:



Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:06:23 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On 20 Jul 2006 16:17:56 -0700, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

The American work ethic may be admirable enough, but if they took a
break every now and then, argues Paul Harris, they might learn a bit
about the rest of the world

Europeans actually get more of a break than he indicates. It's called
unemployment. 15% unemployment is, on average, the same as getting an
additional 8 weeks off every year.

Where on earth do you get 15% from ?

Graham

Geeez! I can understand your aggravation... it's only 11% ;-)

...Jim Thompson

It's not even that high in France for heaven's sake !

5% here. Less than the USA according to http://www.wi-countries.com/cy/2433

Graham

You really need to stop believing your own propaganda...

MONTH....LABOR FORCE....EMPLOYED....UNEMPLOYED..UNEMP RATE/SA RATE*

May 150,696,000 144,041,000 6,655,000 4.4% 4.6%

LAST 12 MONTH AVG...
150,134,083 142,842,417 7,291,667 4.9% 4.9%

* S.A. -- seasonally adjusted.

I just checked cia.gov.

UK 4.7%
US 5.1%

( both figures for 2005 )

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it !

Graham

Dumb-s**t... my figures are from May 2006... learn to read before you
jump, jerk ;-)

...Jim Thompson

But you can see we were doing better from 2003 through 2005.

Graham
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:36 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

John Larkin wrote:

Quote:
On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:56:05 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:06:23 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:



John Larkin wrote:

On 20 Jul 2006 16:17:56 -0700, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

The American work ethic may be admirable enough, but if they took a
break every now and then, argues Paul Harris, they might learn a bit
about the rest of the world

Europeans actually get more of a break than he indicates. It's called
unemployment. 15% unemployment is, on average, the same as getting an
additional 8 weeks off every year.

Where on earth do you get 15% from ?

Graham

Geeez! I can understand your aggravation... it's only 11% ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Some Unemployment figures from http://www.wi-countries.com/

Latvia 8.7
Lithuania 10.5
Estonia 9.9
Finland 9.2
Sweden 4.8
Norway * 4.5
Poland 19.3
Germany 8.9
Denmark 5.5
Netherlands 3.7
Belgium 8.2
France 9.6
Spain 11.4
Portugal 6.4
Italy 8.9
Greece 9.3
Luxembourg 3.8
Liechtenstein * 1.3
Switzerland * 3.9
Austria 4.5
Hungary 5.9
Slovakia 17.6
Czech Republic 8.3
Slovenia 11.3
Malta 5.6
Cyprus 3.4
Eire / Ireland 4.8
UK 5

Monaco * 3.1
Croatia * 21.9
Romania * 15
Macedonia * 37
Montenegro * 40

Non EU *

You can see that the former Eastern Bloc and Yugoslavian countries are still
struggling to improve but of the EU countries only Poland and Slovakia come
anywhere near John's laughable 15% figure.

Weenie liberal Netherlands turns out to have one of the lowest rates of
unemployment too as does ultra-liberal Sweden !

It's interesting to google "actual official unemployment France" and
ditto Germany. Germany in particular plays a number of bookkeeping
tricks to keep the official rate down, like "retiring" people over 50
who can't find jobs. The unemployment rates among youth and immigrants
in France is ghastly.

On the other hand, the considerable grey economy in the former
Yugoslavia may make the actual rate lower than the official one.

Getting really hard data on unemployment can be pretty difficult.

I've heard that US figures may be under-reported for example.

Germany's relatively high rate is a result still of absorbing the former GDR. A
country that has literally ceased to exist !

The two EU countries I mentioned with figures near 15% are also former Soviet Bloc
countries. In comparison though, the Baltic states which were under direct Russian
'occupation' have done quite well.

Graham
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

Quote:
All that paper money is just a state of mind.
Inflation could eat up at forune in a few years

Germany during the Weimar Republic era for example.

Graham
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gfretwell@aol.com
electronics forum addict


Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:05:23 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Quote:
It's interesting to google "actual official unemployment France" and
ditto Germany. Germany in particular plays a number of bookkeeping
tricks to keep the official rate down, like "retiring" people over 50
who can't find jobs.
The US is pretty fast and loose with unemploymnent numbers too. They

only count people who are actively looking for a job. Thee are lots of
people who were laid off with "a package" and show up as retired or
just dissapeared from the labor pool. The hard core unemployables you
see living behind a dumpster are not in the "unermployed" either.
Another group who gets missed are the criminals, although I guess they
are working.
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Paul Hovnanian P.E.
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 583

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:27 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
Quote:

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 19:54:27 -0700, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
paul@hovnanian.com> wrote:

Although the Clinton administration started it, the current gang is
rapidly plugging all the loopholes through which one might move wealth
into a shelter. The Patriot Act gives them a peek into the bank accounts
of any American and the unitary tax system allows them to reach anywhere
in the world to snatch it.

The IRS has always had the ability to peek into your bank accounts
When this was extended to the DEA any thoughts of hiding money were
gone ... unless you just bury it in the yard.

This is true of US citizens. Hence the move of a bunch of wealthy
retirees renouncing US citizenship a few years ago. I believe that
loophole has been plugged.

I'm waiting for the concrete wall, razor wire and checkpoints to go in
at the borders. Its not quite as bad as East Germany. You can still
leave. Just not with your money.


--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
It's easier said than done.
.... and if you don't believe it, try proving that it's easier done than
said, and you'll see that it's easier said that `it's easier done than
said' than it is done, which really proves that it's easier said than
done.
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Michael A. Terrell
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 2291

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:31 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:
Quote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

amdx wrote:
"PeteS" <PeterSmith1954@googlemail.com> wrote in message
news:1153421542.639400.283610@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...

snip

If you could just bring yourself to mind your own damn business you
might have time to find a job.

I don't have any trouble finding jobs. Getting the potential employers
to hire me is the hard bit.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen


Its not a job if you don't get hired. Its just another one that got
away.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
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gfretwell@aol.com
electronics forum addict


Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 05:31:20 GMT, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Quote:
Its not a job if you don't get hired. Its just another one that got
away.

Bobcat Goldwaith sums it up best.
" I didn't lose my job, I know where it is but when I go there, some
other guy is doing it"
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Robert Latest
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 09 May 2005
Posts: 304

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:05:23 -0700,
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote
in Msg. <qqg0c21c9mgpplrcqlpfo4272gn33a9ihd@4ax.com>

Quote:
It's interesting to google "actual official unemployment France" and
ditto Germany. Germany in particular plays a number of bookkeeping
tricks to keep the official rate down, like "retiring" people over 50
who can't find jobs.

f*** Germany. It's so amazing to see how it is stuck knee-deep in
trouble but still knucking under each and every industry lobby who,
after getting one enormous tax break after another, rake in record
revenues year after year and still lay off thousands of people.

I've always admired the incredible American optimism which borders on
(and often crosses the border to) sheer naivetee, but creates an
incredible willing workforce (many of whose contituents are probably too
stupid and too religious to see how they're fucked over by the
government they elected) and quite a lot of brilliant entrepreneurs.
Let's not forget, though, that many of those are children or
grandchildren of European emigrants who arrived in the US with nothing
except what they had in their suitcases and -- most importantly -- their
heads, and who had to build their existence without outside help from
the ground up. I think it is this heritage that is still a source of the
creativity which a thriving economy needs (along with cheap mortgages on
over-valued property).

As far as job security goes -- job security is very high in Germany, but
IMO that doesn't help the total number of available jobs in any way.
Here, those who have a job are afraid of losing it, those that don't
have a job don't have any hope of getting one, and those that might
offer a job are afraid of hiring someone they can't ever get rid of.
This creates a society in which part of the work force clings to jobs
that they often don't like while another part has resignedly settled
into permanent unemployment (which isn't quite as comfortable as many
like to picture it).

I sometimes wonder if liberalizing the job market wouldn't be agood
idea: Assuming that the entire economic power stays the same, the same
total workforce would be needed, resulting in the same number of
employed (and unemployed) people. However since hiring and firing would
be easy, companies would probably "try out" more people -- and people
would try to be better at their jobs, while at the same time the chances
of getting re-employed after a firing would be higher. In general the
fluctuation on the job market would be higher, and more people would
wash ashore jobs that they're really good at.

Heck, a friend of mine runs a small machine shop. From what he told me,
particularly about the impossibility of /finding/ good people through
"normal" channels*, I could write an entire essay on the damn German job
market.

robert

*actually the folks he's most happy with are the Bill Slomans of
mechanical engineering, so to speak: Experienced old hacks with good
work ethics. Impossible to find through Germany's "Arbeitsagentur" or
via ads.
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Bill Sloman
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 12 May 2005
Posts: 1080

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 10:12 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

Bobo The Chimp wrote:
Quote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 11:52:22 -0700, PeteS wrote:

The American work ethic may be admirable enough, but if they took a
break every now and then, argues Paul Harris, they might learn a bit
about the rest of the world

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/columnists/story/0,,1824906,00.html

Interesting take

I've lived and worked in both Europe and the USA [just about 50:50]
over the last (almost) 40 years, and certainly much of what he says
makes sense.

Let battle be joined ;)


Heh - Europeans are human beings, But Americans are human doings. Wink

It would be nice if the Americans put in a bit more time thinking about
what they ought to do before they got busy with doing it.

"Invade Irak!"

"Yes sir, consider it done".

"Okay sir , we've occupied Irak. What do you want us to do with it?"

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
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