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Blue sky thinking
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

Robert Latest wrote:

Quote:
f*** Germany. It's so amazing to see how it is stuck knee-deep in
trouble

Well.......... it did just absorb what was once another country which wasn't in
the finest shape at the time !

Graham
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amdx
electronics forum addict


Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:44C02C77.C423B473@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com...
Quote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:06:23 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On 20 Jul 2006 16:17:56 -0700, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

The American work ethic may be admirable enough, but if they
took a
break every now and then, argues Paul Harris, they might learn
a bit
about the rest of the world

Europeans actually get more of a break than he indicates. It's called
unemployment. 15% unemployment is, on average, the same as getting an
additional 8 weeks off every year.

Where on earth do you get 15% from ?

Graham

Geeez! I can understand your aggravation... it's only 11% ;-)

...Jim Thompson

It's not even that high in France for heaven's sake !

5% here. Less than the USA according to
http://www.wi-countries.com/cy/2433

Graham

That's only because they create auto repair jobs by allowing youth gangs
to burn cars, about 30,000 cars a year.
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1834968,00.html
Mike
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amdx
electronics forum addict


Joined: 19 Jul 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

<gfretwell@aol.com> wrote in message
news:41j0c21k9g6tjjpqm05spg8q1jirqnvu0h@4ax.com...
Quote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:05:23 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

It's interesting to google "actual official unemployment France" and
ditto Germany. Germany in particular plays a number of bookkeeping
tricks to keep the official rate down, like "retiring" people over 50
who can't find jobs.
The US is pretty fast and loose with unemploymnent numbers too. They
only count people who are actively looking for a job. Thee are lots of
people who were laid off with "a package" and show up as retired or
just dissapeared from the labor pool. The hard core unemployables you
see living behind a dumpster are not in the "unermployed" either.
Another group who gets missed are the criminals, although I guess they
are working.

Don't forget the 12 to 20 million jobs stolen by illegal aliens.
Or to put it another way, the U.S. economy has created so many jobs
workers had to be imported to fill them.
Mike
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Eeyore
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 642

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

amdx wrote:

Quote:
the U.S. economy has created so many jobs
workers had to be imported to fill them.

The same has long been true of the UK, France and Germany too.

Graham
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John Larkin
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 4320

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 04:36:48 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:


John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:56:05 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:


Jim Thompson wrote:

On Fri, 21 Jul 2006 02:06:23 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@REMOVETHIS.hotmail.com> wrote:



John Larkin wrote:

On 20 Jul 2006 16:17:56 -0700, bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote:

The American work ethic may be admirable enough, but if they took a
break every now and then, argues Paul Harris, they might learn a bit
about the rest of the world

Europeans actually get more of a break than he indicates. It's called
unemployment. 15% unemployment is, on average, the same as getting an
additional 8 weeks off every year.

Where on earth do you get 15% from ?

Graham

Geeez! I can understand your aggravation... it's only 11% ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Some Unemployment figures from http://www.wi-countries.com/

Latvia 8.7
Lithuania 10.5
Estonia 9.9
Finland 9.2
Sweden 4.8
Norway * 4.5
Poland 19.3
Germany 8.9
Denmark 5.5
Netherlands 3.7
Belgium 8.2
France 9.6
Spain 11.4
Portugal 6.4
Italy 8.9
Greece 9.3
Luxembourg 3.8
Liechtenstein * 1.3
Switzerland * 3.9
Austria 4.5
Hungary 5.9
Slovakia 17.6
Czech Republic 8.3
Slovenia 11.3
Malta 5.6
Cyprus 3.4
Eire / Ireland 4.8
UK 5

Monaco * 3.1
Croatia * 21.9
Romania * 15
Macedonia * 37
Montenegro * 40

Non EU *

You can see that the former Eastern Bloc and Yugoslavian countries are still
struggling to improve but of the EU countries only Poland and Slovakia come
anywhere near John's laughable 15% figure.

Weenie liberal Netherlands turns out to have one of the lowest rates of
unemployment too as does ultra-liberal Sweden !

It's interesting to google "actual official unemployment France" and
ditto Germany. Germany in particular plays a number of bookkeeping
tricks to keep the official rate down, like "retiring" people over 50
who can't find jobs. The unemployment rates among youth and immigrants
in France is ghastly.

On the other hand, the considerable grey economy in the former
Yugoslavia may make the actual rate lower than the official one.

Getting really hard data on unemployment can be pretty difficult.

I've heard that US figures may be under-reported for example.

Germany's relatively high rate is a result still of absorbing the former GDR. A
country that has literally ceased to exist !

The two EU countries I mentioned with figures near 15% are also former Soviet Bloc
countries. In comparison though, the Baltic states which were under direct Russian
'occupation' have done quite well.

Graham


In a sense, unemployment doesn't matter. As productivity increases
(thank the hard-working engineers for that) a progressively smaller
part of the population actually has to work to provide for the needs
of all. In the US, about 5% of the population manufactures stuff, and
even fewer are farmers. I suppose, ultimately, everybody will be
required to spend two years of their lives working, sort of like being
in the army. School til you're 32, work two years, retire; sounds like
modern Germany, now that I think about it.

I guess the issue about unemployment is actually: what do all those
unemployed people DO? Many countries - US, UK, France - have sizable
unemployed populations, often minorities, who just get into trouble.

I know what they should do!

John
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John Larkin
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 4320

PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Blue sky thinking Reply with quote

On 21 Jul 2006 08:53:29 GMT, Robert Latest <boblatest@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 20 Jul 2006 20:05:23 -0700,
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote
in Msg. <qqg0c21c9mgpplrcqlpfo4272gn33a9ihd@4ax.com

It's interesting to google "actual official unemployment France" and
ditto Germany. Germany in particular plays a number of bookkeeping
tricks to keep the official rate down, like "retiring" people over 50
who can't find jobs.

f*** Germany. It's so amazing to see how it is stuck knee-deep in
trouble but still knucking under each and every industry lobby who,
after getting one enormous tax break after another, rake in record
revenues year after year and still lay off thousands of people.

I've always admired the incredible American optimism which borders on
(and often crosses the border to) sheer naivetee, but creates an
incredible willing workforce (many of whose contituents are probably too
stupid and too religious to see how they're fucked over by the
government they elected) and quite a lot of brilliant entrepreneurs.
Let's not forget, though, that many of those are children or
grandchildren of European emigrants who arrived in the US with nothing
except what they had in their suitcases and -- most importantly -- their
heads, and who had to build their existence without outside help from
the ground up. I think it is this heritage that is still a source of the
creativity which a thriving economy needs (along with cheap mortgages on
over-valued property).


Surveys indicate that most Americans like their jobs and their lives.
Jobs give you something to do, social interaction, gossip, exercize. A
lot of people decay and die a few years after they retire, from lack
of stimulation.


Quote:
As far as job security goes -- job security is very high in Germany, but
IMO that doesn't help the total number of available jobs in any way.
Here, those who have a job are afraid of losing it, those that don't
have a job don't have any hope of getting one, and those that might
offer a job are afraid of hiring someone they can't ever get rid of.
This creates a society in which part of the work force clings to jobs
that they often don't like while another part has resignedly settled
into permanent unemployment (which isn't quite as comfortable as many
like to picture it).

I sometimes wonder if liberalizing the job market wouldn't be agood
idea: Assuming that the entire economic power stays the same, the same
total workforce would be needed, resulting in the same number of
employed (and unemployed) people. However since hiring and firing would
be easy, companies would probably "try out" more people -- and people
would try to be better at their jobs, while at the same time the chances
of getting re-employed after a firing would be higher. In general the
fluctuation on the job market would be higher, and more people would
wash ashore jobs that they're really good at.

Of course. Trial and error results in best-fit matches, benefiting the
employer, employee, and society. And everyone should be fired at least
once. Being fired was one of the more valuable experiences of my life.
Or two most valuable, maybe, depending on the definition of "fire."

Quote:

Heck, a friend of mine runs a small machine shop. From what he told me,
particularly about the impossibility of /finding/ good people through
"normal" channels*, I could write an entire essay on the damn German job
market.

I have a French friend, force-retired from INSNEC, who has been trying
to start his own business, without success. He says he can't hire
anybody because the government overhead is too extreme.

John
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