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analog multiplier
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bob@coolgroups.com
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 06 May 2006
Posts: 14

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:26 am    Post subject: analog multiplier Reply with quote
Can you make an analog multiplier with an operational amplifier or a
biased transistor?

Thanks.
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Phil Allison
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 1368

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: analog multiplier Reply with quote
<bob@coolgroups.com>

** Groper alert.

Quote:
Can you make an analog multiplier with an operational amplifier or a
biased transistor?



** You can make one if you use both.



........ Phil
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Ban
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 466

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: analog multiplier Reply with quote
Phil Allison wrote:
Quote:

Can you make an analog multiplier with an operational amplifier or a
biased transistor?



** You can make one if you use both.

View\fixed font

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| | V+
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| |R1 | |R1
| | | | ___
'-' '-' .--|___|-.
| | | R2 |
| | | |\ |
| +----+---|-\ |
| | | >-+--o
+---------)----+---|+/ Vout
| | | |/
| | | ___
| | '--|___|-GND
|/ \| R2
o-| LM394 |-GND
Vx |> <|
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=== |
GND .-. Vout~ R2/Ry * VxVy/2Vt
| |Ry
| | with Vy<0, Vt=26mV
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| +/-Vx<<Vt 6mV for 1%THD
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Vy dual transistor for low
o offset drift
|
=== R1 chosen for proper bias
GND
(created by AACircuit v1.28 beta 10/06/04 www.tech-chat.de)

--
ciao Ban
Apricale, Italy
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Abstract Dissonance
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 22 Dec 2005
Posts: 380

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: analog multiplier Reply with quote
<bob@coolgroups.com> wrote in message
news:1153286765.487900.194470@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Can you make an analog multiplier with an operational amplifier or a
biased transistor?

Thanks.


The only method I know of uses the fact that log(f*g) = log(f) + log(g)

hence you convert your signals to there logs then add and take the
exponential.

i.e.

f*g = exp(log(f) + log(g))
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Greg Neill
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 23 Feb 2006
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: analog multiplier Reply with quote
<bob@coolgroups.com> wrote in message news:1153286765.487900.194470@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Quote:
Can you make an analog multiplier with an operational amplifier or a
biased transistor?

You can make logarithmic and exponential output
configurations (employing a diode in the op-amp
circuit), and a summing amplifier. So you could
put together multiplying and dividing circuits
by combining them appropriately. Have a look
here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_amplifier_applications
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John Larkin
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 4320

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: analog multiplier Reply with quote
On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 07:44:18 -0400, "Greg Neill"
<gneillREM@OVE.THIS.netcom.ca> wrote:

Quote:
bob@coolgroups.com> wrote in message news:1153286765.487900.194470@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Can you make an analog multiplier with an operational amplifier or a
biased transistor?

You can make logarithmic and exponential output
configurations (employing a diode in the op-amp
circuit), and a summing amplifier. So you could
put together multiplying and dividing circuits
by combining them appropriately. Have a look
here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operational_amplifier_applications


Also google "Gilbert cell multiplier."

John
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Chris
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 723

PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: analog multiplier Reply with quote
bob@coolgroups.com wrote:
Quote:
Can you make an analog multiplier with an operational amplifier or a
biased transistor?

Thanks.

Hi, Bob. You can, but I wouldn't.

Multipliers made from op amps and discrete components are subject to
major drift and non-linearity issues. Also, less complex designs have
the limitation of only working in one or two quadrants (meaning one or
both of the multiplier inputs can only be positive).

You can get a good four-quadrant IC analog multiplier (Analog Devices
AD633) for several dollars in single quantity. It has differential
inputs, better than 2% error across the input voltage range, works from
DC to well above audio frequencies, and doesn't require *any* external
components. Perfect for newbies.

http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/277093686AD633_e.pdf

If you have requirements for higher frequency, more accuracy, or
special functions (division, square root), other products which can
help you are available from Analog Devices and Burr-Brown (now TI).

http://www.analog.com/en/index.html
http://www.ti.com/

If you're thinking about actually making one instead of just answering
a question, the headache of trying to cobble together a working
multiplier from discrete components just isn't worth it.

Good luck
Chris
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Bob Masta
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Re: analog multiplier Reply with quote
On 18 Jul 2006 22:26:05 -0700, bob@coolgroups.com wrote:

Quote:
Can you make an analog multiplier with an operational amplifier or a
biased transistor?

Thanks.


Others have given you good info regarding multipliers
that use device nonlinearities. These are the methods
of choice for high-speed applications (Gilbert cell especially).
But for low-speed situations it's possible to build a
multiplier based on pulse-width modulation. The basic
idea is that you feed a fast triangle wave into one input of
a comparator, and one of the values to be multiplied into
the other. The output is a rectangular wave whose duty
cycle is proportional to the input value. You then use this
to modulate (chop) the second input, and average the
results (low-pass filter) to get the product output. This
works well at low frequencies and can be made very
linear. As you try to move to higher frequencies things
get trickier.

Best regards,


Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com
Home of DaqGen, the FREEWARE signal generator
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