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Sine to square wave converter
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Alan B
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: Zero Ohms = Mathematically Incorrect Reply with quote

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:56:18 -0700, in message
<pgeae2d3dp6jffamugbcpo7f5oi4i9g244@4ax.com>, John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> scribed:

Quote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:29:28 -0700, Alan B
nannerbac@nothotmailbutyahoo.com> wrote:

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:31:48 -0700, in message
o92ae25a006gs7tvmddoq6qrhqerk9rn1u@4ax.com>, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> scribed:

On 16 Aug 2006 19:39:29 -0700, "Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:

Hi:

If a conductor has zero resistance, then what is the amperage of a
current flowing though it?


The simplest answer is that Ohm's Law is not a law at all. It's never
true, and it's often wildly off.

Would you care to explain why that is the simplest answer?

Because it makes the division meaningless hence harmless.

It? What is *it*? Ohm's Law? Are you referring to division by zero
resistance in the equation I = V/R? If so, how does Ohms Law make this
division meaningless? Are you always so obtuse?
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Alan B
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 05 May 2006
Posts: 137

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:04 am    Post subject: Re: Zero Ohms = Mathematically Incorrect Reply with quote

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:54:27 -0700, in message
<jdeae2d57588o1hihd3hvf97laujusdk61@4ax.com>, John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> scribed:

Quote:
You missed this bit: "Well, let's keep it simple." Since I don't have an
absolute-zero chamber in my workshop, I thought I'd leave superconductors
out of the picture. Zat okay?

Sure, but it avoids addressing the "math problem", which actually
doesn't exist.

Pretty soon you're likely to say something specific, but I'm not holding my
breath.
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Mr. J D
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:20 am    Post subject: What is the Capacitor and Resistor formula to delay the turn-on, saturation, of a transistor? Reply with quote

An Electrolytic Capacitor in series with a Resistor attachced to the
base of a transistor would provide a simple timing circuit, yes? What
is the formula to derive the needed Farads and Ohms?
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Bill Bowden
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 152

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:27 am    Post subject: Re: Zero Ohms = Mathematically Incorrect Reply with quote

DJ Delorie wrote:
Quote:
"Bill Bowden" <wrongaddress@att.net> writes:
Another thought is the current and voltage in a LC tank circuit. If
the current reaches a peak at the same time the voltage goes to
zero, and visa versa, what is the current in the LC circuit when the
voltage is zero?

To work with circuits like this, you have to use complex numbers for
volts, current, and "resistance". That lets you have sinusoidal
voltages and currents that are out of phase with each other, and still
be able to do the math sanely.

In your example, the peak current depends on the peak voltage, and the
L and C values. If the tank is driven, it also depends on the
frequency of the driving source.

Isn't it still ohm's law?. For a parallel LC circuit, the reactance of
a super conducting 1 Henry inductor at 1 Hertz will be XL= WL or 6.28
ohms and therefore the peak voltage across the parallel LC circuit will
be 6.28 volts when the peak current is 1 amp, just not at the same
time?

Something like that?

-Bill
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John Larkin
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 4320

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 4:47 am    Post subject: Re: Zero Ohms = Mathematically Incorrect Reply with quote

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 21:04:29 -0700, Alan B
<nannerbac@nothotmailbutyahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 20:56:18 -0700, in message
pgeae2d3dp6jffamugbcpo7f5oi4i9g244@4ax.com>, John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandtechnology.com> scribed:

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:29:28 -0700, Alan B
nannerbac@nothotmailbutyahoo.com> wrote:

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:31:48 -0700, in message
o92ae25a006gs7tvmddoq6qrhqerk9rn1u@4ax.com>, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> scribed:

On 16 Aug 2006 19:39:29 -0700, "Radium" <glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:

Hi:

If a conductor has zero resistance, then what is the amperage of a
current flowing though it?


The simplest answer is that Ohm's Law is not a law at all. It's never
true, and it's often wildly off.

Would you care to explain why that is the simplest answer?

Because it makes the division meaningless hence harmless.

It? What is *it*? Ohm's Law?

No, the lack of Ohm's Law.

Quote:
Are you referring to division by zero
resistance in the equation I = V/R? If so, how does Ohms Law make this
division meaningless?

As I think I mentioned, Ohm's Law isn't a physical law. So E/0 is no
different from 99/0; confusing perhaps, but not a physical
singularity.

"R" is just a definition of E/I in some particular quasi-steady-state
situation. As a definition, and not a physical reality, using it as a
denominator creates no real-world difficulties.

Quote:
Are you always so obtuse?

I'm always an electrical engineer, and I don't let definitions get in
my way. Real circuits never create mathematical singularities or
physical absurdities.

John
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Robert Baer
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 1159

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: How many mA are required for a LOW and HIGH signal on a digital CMOS gate. Reply with quote

Mr. J D wrote:

Quote:
I am looking at the datasheet for a digital XOR gate,
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/NC/NC7SZ86.pdf . How many mA must be
applied to signal pins to make a LOW or HIGH signal?

You do *not* "apply" current; inputs are from *voltage* sources.
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Robert Baer
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 1159

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: How many mA are required for a LOW and HIGH signal on a digital CMOS gate. Reply with quote

Mr. J D wrote:

Quote:
Phil Allison wrote:

"Mr. J D" <JedOs86@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1155870453.604263.196500@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...


** Groper alert !!



I am looking at the datasheet for a digital XOR gate,


** But not seeing the bleeding obvious.



http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/NC/NC7SZ86.pdf . How many mA must be
applied to signal pins to make a LOW or HIGH signal?


** Mosfets require no DC current at the gate.

Page 3 of the pdf data says:

Input leakage current: +/- 1uA max. at 5.5 volts and 25C.




....... Phil


Thanks for the insults, LOL. I knew that CMOS, because they are mosfet
driven, and not transistor driven, that they did not need a current.
However, you misread what I asked. What meant was does the CMOS see a
0V 0uA at the gate as a LOW signal?

You did *not* ask or say that originally.
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jasen
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 204

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: 555 timer Reply with quote

On 2006-08-17, default <default@defaulter.net> wrote:
Quote:

5K? I thought they were 10M, maybe it depends if cmos or bipolar.

I thought we were talking standard parts here.

I was wrong.

Quote:
But if a cmos part only takes a total of 100 microamps to work, the
total divider string would have to be greater than 50K.

I dowloaded (and saved this time) a few datasheets after posting that.
the bipolar oness all seem to use 5K resistors in their chain
the NS cmos version uses 100K so I was out by 2 orders of magnitude even
there.

Bye.
Jasen
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darkreality
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 18 Aug 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:12 am    Post subject: get rich for real!!!!!!!!!!!!! Reply with quote

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John Fields
electronics forum Guru


Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 3260

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Zero Ohms = Mathematically Incorrect Reply with quote

On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:58:42 -0500, "Abstract Dissonance"
<Abstract.Dissonance@hotmail.com> wrote:


Quote:
Some people like to "what if" everything to death... "what if there was an
infinite number of electrons" or "what if there was zero resistance
conductors". These are very similar to questions like "What if there is a
god" or "What if I lived for ever". The only real thing that can come of
these types of questions is a waste of time(and it can be measured too).

---
What if there were no hypothetical questions?


--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer
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Catch-22
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Zero Ohms = Mathematically Incorrect Reply with quote

Abstract Dissonance wrote:
Quote:
Some people like to "what if" everything to death... "what if there was an
infinite number of electrons" or "what if there was zero resistance
conductors". These are very similar to questions like "What if there is a
god" or "What if I lived for ever". The only real thing that can come of
these types of questions is a waste of time(and it can be measured too).

I think people ask these types of questions because they want to feel smart
but are to stupid or to lazy to learn about much more important things that
actually have answers. They can sit around all day asking these questions
and when they don't arrive at an answer they won't feel stupid because no
one else has them either(or could prove them wrong).

Is it a waste of time to exercise, expending energy when
it is put to no productive use. Oscillators oscillate.
Ideally we don't want to remove any energy out of them,
but they do have practical uses. They measure time,
which is not a waste of time. We shouldn't get upset
when an oscillator is being redundant. That's what it does.

Quote:

It should be a crime to mention infinity outside the scientific community.

Ancient greeks made knowledge of sqrt(2)=(1/sin(45)) a capital offense.
Some religions allegedly banned the number zero for a while. Others no doubt
banned infinity after the mathematician Cantor went insane. Let's face it,
numerology and religions have alot in common.

But an oscillator can fry itself out. It is possible to make a tank circuit
with too little resistance.
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default
electronics forum Guru Wannabe


Joined: 03 May 2005
Posts: 175

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Trouble With A Very Simple MOSFET Amplifier Reply with quote

On Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:33:37 +1000, "Phil Allison"
<philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote:

Quote:
Is has a 8 ohm speaker with a 9 volt supply, so a current of over 1 amp is
possible.

Dissipation can be as high as 4.5 volts times 0.56 amps = 2.5 watts.

And you may be missing the point - someone needs to go back and find
out what speaker the original plans call for. I see the speaker as a
problem - half amp DC continuous through the speaker is likely as not
going to cause distortion (not that someone with an electric guitar
might object to that). The speaker should be up around a 30-100 ohms.

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Fleetie
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Can electricity flow through air w/out sparking? Reply with quote

Look. For once, Radium actually has a point.

It is possible for DC current to flow through air without
producing a spark. I have done it myself.

Take a variable (~30kV) DC high-voltage source. The one I used was valve-
powered, by the way! Take two needles and clamp them so that each
point points to the other needle's point, i.e. they're pointing at
each other. Set the points 1cm apart. Obviously, the needles will
not be electrically connected. Each needle is connected to one
output of the high voltage generator. Start the generator at a low
voltage. Crank it up, and before it does spark (experiment to find
the voltage at which it does, if you like (if you damage your generator
if/when it sparks, that's your problem, not mine)), there will be an
"ion wind" between the needles. Sometimes you can even hear it, or
see bits of dust in the air being blown around. Current is most definitely
flowing, yet there is no spark. There is ionisation, but no spark as such.
In the dark, you will likely see a blue glow at the needles' points. But it
is still not a spark, in that it does connect the needle points.
Turn the voltage down a little, and stick a candle flame between the
electrodes.

Have fun. Don't kill yourselves.


Martin

Disclaimer: This in no way endorses Radium's other stoopid questions.
--
M.A.Poyser
Manchester, U.K. http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=fleetie
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kfel
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: What is the Capacitor and Resistor formula to delay the turn-on, saturation, of a transistor? Reply with quote

T=RC, where R=Resistance in Ohms and C=capacitance in farads and T in
secs. Note that this is the time it would take for the capacitor to
reach 63.2% of the supplied voltage.

Mr. J D wrote:
Quote:
An Electrolytic Capacitor in series with a Resistor attachced to the
base of a transistor would provide a simple timing circuit, yes? What
is the formula to derive the needed Farads and Ohms?
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kfel
electronics forum beginner


Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: power on delay using a 555 chip Reply with quote

Chris, I did try out the circuit but went about the testing in a phased
manner.
Step 1:
I rigged up the 555 in astable mode. Provided it with supply from a 9V
battery. Checked the output pin for oscillation and found it to be ok.
Step 2:
Then I rigged up a simple DC supply circuit using a 5.2V zener in
parallel with a 470uF/16V capacitor. (This circuit is explained in the
application note 954A of microchip corporation). Using this as the
primary source of the power to the 555 i checked the output pin for
oscillations and found it to be ok.
Step 3:
Rigged up a circuit containing of a 40W GLS lamp in series with triac
BT06600 from ST Micro. Connected one end of the lamp to the MT2
terminal. Other end of the lamp was connected to Phase (240Volts AC
RMS). MT1 terminal was connected to Neutral. Connected a wire from gate
terminal but did not connect it to the output of the 555 as yet.
Step 4:
Switched on the power supply and checked the output at pin 3 of 555 and
found it to be ok. As the gate terminal was not connected the lamp did
not glow. Now when i connected the gate terminal to the output of the
timer the 555 went kaboom. So did the triac. Unable to understand what
went wrong. Any help would be appreciated.
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